STAR TREK has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation-- not just Earth-- is their 'evolution' away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of NEXT GENERATION. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to function?
STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race.
The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown.
It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures.
Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the >>additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the >>narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of >>lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures.
Link is
https://gamerant.com/star-trek-problem-federation-economy
Please stop hiding the links in the headers, Ubi.
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
economy,
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
On Aug 20, 2022 at 6:04:30 PM PDT, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back on earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every bit
STAR TREK has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation-- not just Earth-- is their
'evolution' away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of NEXT GENERATION. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
I made this same point years ago in a STAR TREK discussion group. It was
With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but allthroughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator
And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How thehell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own restaurant actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government for a
ordering around the busboys and line cooks, and I was like, "Why the hellThe same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?
Yes, in the same DS9 restaurant episodes, there was a scene of Daddy Sisko
STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race.
I've always hated the way TREK portrays using technology to do rote, menial,and/or unpleasant tasks is equated with 'creating a slave race'. Have I enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroombecome enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my postings to Usenet not enslavement?
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown.
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
On Aug 20, 2022 at 6:04:30 PM PDT, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
I made this same point years ago in a STAR TREK discussion group. It was during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back
on earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every bit like any restaurant you might currently find in New Orleans and I was like, "How does this work without money?"
And they talked about Jake or Ben having transporter rations so they could come visit a lot but not every day. Somehow they have money in every way shape and form except the name.
Do people just wander in, order some food, eat it, and then get up and leave without paying for anything? And does Daddy Sisko just get supplies of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from farmers who just drop it off, free of charge?
With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator food isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant like Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real\ people, so the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?
Voyager is the biggest offender here. They said so many horrible things
about replicators and the holo deck that we can't ever reconcile it. At
least if they’d crippled voyagers holo emitters in the pilot they could rely on the fact that the system doesn't work right.
Voyagers food replicators can't make crisp celery. So every planet they
pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
Apparently there's some intrinsic difference between transporter technology and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are you really going to ride in the transporter?
But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?
And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How
the hell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own restaurant actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government for a building with a fully-equipped kitchen and a completely furnished dining room and the government gives them one? That seems absurd, but otherwise, they either have to pay someone for a restaurant or pay someone to build them one. The only alternative is that the answer is, if you're not already a chef who owns a restaurant somehow-- like Picard's inherited vineyard-- then no, you can never become one.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?
Yes, in the same DS9 restaurant episodes, there was a scene of Daddy
Sisko ordering around the busboys and line cooks like drill sergeant,
and I was like, "Why the hell would someone who lives in a society where there's no need to work to survive conceivably take a job in a restaurant doing back-breaking work like busing tables and mopping floors? Or
cleaning toilets or any of the other things that one would think 24th- century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race.
And then there's the tailor who makes better clothes than the automatic systems can. There's just no way to defend that.
I've always hated the way TREK equates using technology to do rote,
menial, and/or unpleasant tasks with 'creating a slave race'. Have I enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroom become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my postings to Usenet not enslavement?
The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown.
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy, in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
Gold pressed Latinum.
I watched an episode the other night where somehow somebody had managed to remove all the gold leaving just Latinum sludge behind. Even though gold is intrinsically worthless to the Ferengi somehow Latinum without gold is worthless as well. Also apparently gold pressed Latinum can’t be replicated but it can be carried through a transporter. It’s the monetary equivalent of crisp celery.
It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
economy,
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't allow it to be replicated.
On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based >>> economy,
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't allow it to be replicated.
TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
In article <atropos-B2C484.11420721082022@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based >>>>>> economy,We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate. >>>>>
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just >>>> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed
latinum
has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that
won't
allow it to be replicated.
Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
nothing for them.
They once showed a snack being transported from the galley to the
transporter room. They never showed food being created out of nothing.
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
economy,
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just replicate it as needed.
We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum has value--
because there's something about its atomic structure that won't allow
it to be replicated.
In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based >>> economy,We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate. >>
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
allow it to be replicated.
TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
nothing for them.
On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
economy,
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just >> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum >> has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't >> allow it to be replicated.
In article <atropos-B2C484.11420721082022@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based >>>>>> economy,We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate. >>>>>
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just >>>> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed
latinum
has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that
won't
allow it to be replicated.
Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
nothing for them.
They once showed a snack being transported from the galley to the
transporter room. They never showed food being created out of nothing.
In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based >>>>> economy,
in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just >>> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum >>> has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't >>> allow it to be replicated.
Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
nothing for them.
On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck >> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
and laugh. :D
I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow >>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to >>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
and laugh. :D
But it’s a Holo victory
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that he¹s authorized to pay an equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me they¹re still using money.
On 8/21/2022 6:01 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:LOL. NOW it works.
On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow >>>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to >>>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the >>>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
and laugh. :D
But it’s a Holo victory
In article
<2046459558.682814783.492512.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that he¹s authorized to pay an
equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me they¹re still
using money.
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
gold. Oops
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <2046459558.682814783.492512.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based >>>> economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that he¹s authorized to pay an
equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me they¹re still >> using money.
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much >more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much >> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
In article
<1820992551.682849148.992516.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article
<2046459558.682814783.492512.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based >>>>>> economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that he¹s authorized to pay an >>>> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me they¹re still >>>> using money.
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much >> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
MUDD: Just three? You're sure?
RUTH: Yes. The miners are healthy and fairly young.
MUDD: Later, dear, later. Magda, did you get to your communications man?
MAGDA: The head miner is named Ben Childress. The others are Gossett
and Benton.
MUDD: And they've been there?
RUTH: Almost three years now, alone!
MUDD: Perfect. Perfect. Three of them and three lovely ladies has Harry
Mudd. And lithium crystals, my dear, are worth three hundred times
their weight in diamonds, thousands of times their weight in gold.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention >>>> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much >>> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
episode meant "dilithium".
On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention >>>> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so
much more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
episode meant "dilithium".
In article <te0n8b$2ob9c$1@dont-email.me>, dtravel@sonic.net wrote:
On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention >>>>> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so
much more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
episode meant "dilithium".
Are you sure he didn't mean "mood stabilizers"? Mudd did seem a bit manic. :-D
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention >>>>> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much >>>> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
episode meant "dilithium".
Maybe, and sort of. TOS has lithium, lithium cracking stations, and dilithium. I always assume that’s the order in which they exist and that dilithium is cracked with them. But we’ve seen the big E repair herself with both lithium and freshly cracked stuff. I’m sure we could probably wank it somehow that plain lithium can be used in a pinch but it’s a lot better to refine it.
On 8/22/2022 2:28 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:I seem to remember some discussion or article years ago about them all
On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention >>>>>> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
episode meant "dilithium".
Maybe, and sort of. TOS has lithium, lithium cracking stations, and
dilithium. I always assume that’s the order in which they exist and that >> dilithium is cracked with them. But we’ve seen the big E repair herself
with both lithium and freshly cracked stuff. I’m sure we could probably
wank it somehow that plain lithium can be used in a pinch but it’s a lot >> better to refine it.
being the same thing in TOS. The argument was largely based on the poor continuity between the various writers using different terms for the
same thing in whatever series bible there was (assuming there even was one).
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 8/22/2022 2:28 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:I seem to remember some discussion or article years ago about them all
On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention >>>>>>> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
episode meant "dilithium".
Maybe, and sort of. TOS has lithium, lithium cracking stations, and
dilithium. I always assume that’s the order in which they exist and that >>> dilithium is cracked with them. But we’ve seen the big E repair herself >>> with both lithium and freshly cracked stuff. I’m sure we could probably >>> wank it somehow that plain lithium can be used in a pinch but it’s a lot >>> better to refine it.
being the same thing in TOS. The argument was largely based on the poor
continuity between the various writers using different terms for the
same thing in whatever series bible there was (assuming there even was one). >>
This is certainly possible but if lithium and dilithium and dilithium crystals are all the same thing, then what is that cracking station doing? Especially if lithium crystals can be used raw right out of the ground.
The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if >> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?
Not everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard, probably because not
everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated by scarcity. The guy
who sold tribbles sold them for something,
though Spock does say he has a modest living.
Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their ‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word) would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to function?
Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race. The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
--
Let's go Brandon!
On 2022-08-20 8:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
On Saturday, 20 August 2022 at 21:06:08 UTC-4, Ubiquitous wrote:
Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine?
There probably is some vine-growing land that is up for grabs because
the previous owners released it to the government because they had no >interest in viticulture. Alternative they take off to one of the >underpopulated colonies that has some suitable land. They'd just have
to show the government that they were serious about their pursuit of
such a career.
How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what >>> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word) >>> would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?
Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race.
Full AI probably isn't necessary for the really dirty jobs.
The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what's the point if >>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?
Keeping the damn shrinks off your back.
Not everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
--
Let's go Brandon!
There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard,
probably because not everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants
are still regulated by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold
them for something, though Spock does say he has a modest living.
The guy who sold tribbles lived before Earth got taken over by the
commies.
On Saturday, 20 August 2022 at 21:06:08 UTC-4, Ubiquitous wrote:
Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine?
How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?
Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race.
The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if >> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?
Not everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
--
Let's go Brandon!
There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard, probably because not
everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold them for something, though
Spock does say he has a modest living.
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