On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's more,
it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical sense:
alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme for me as
it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years minimum:
I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

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Hi,

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

Web 2.0/3.0. Like if you write server code or client code
with the licensed software. It seems there are some
loopholes in GNU concerning Web 2.0/3.0.

ChatGPT tells me the following:

---------------------- cut here -----------------------

The Affero General Public License (AGPL) is a variant of
the GNU General Public License (GPL) designed specifically
for software that is used over a network, such as web
applications or SaaS (Software-as-a-Service) platforms.

It ensures that users accessing the software via a network
have the same freedoms as those who receive it directly.

Key Features of the AGPL:
Network Interaction Clause:

The AGPL includes an additional requirement not found
in the standard GPL. If you modify AGPL-licensed software
and allow users to interact with it over a network (e.g.,
through a web application), you must make the source code

of the modified version available to those users.

Focus on SaaS:

The AGPL closes the "SaaS loophole" found in the standard
GPL. Under the standard GPL, if you run modified software
on a server without distributing it, you're not obligated
to share your modifications. The AGPL changes this: network
access to the software is treated as a form of distribution.

Same Four Freedoms:

Like the GPL, the AGPL provides users with the freedoms to
run, study, modify, and redistribute the software.

Compatibility with the GPL:

Software under the AGPL is compatible with the GPL. However,
when combining AGPL and GPL code, the resulting work must
be licensed under the AGPL to maintain the stronger network clause.

Common Use Cases:

Web-based software, such as content management systems (CMS),
databases, or frameworks. SaaS platforms or services that
incorporate open-source components but need to respect the
AGPL's requirements for source code transparency.

In essence, the AGPL ensures that even when software is used
over a network, its freedoms and obligations remain intact
for the end users.

---------------------- cut here -----------------------

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

If you want something with a GNU license,
there is GNU Prolog:

http://www.gprolog.org/

According to wiki, it has these two licenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

Better use GNU Prolog if you want exactly some GNU license.

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

I am looking for a *clean and mean* Prolog implementation: Dogelog at
a cursory inspection (I have had a look at docs and code at
www.xlog.ch) looks like a pretty good candidate.

Just it quite bothers me that it is not "free software", so I would
not be able to fork it not even as an extreme measure.  Rationale/any
plans to open it say under GPL (i.e. free for non-commercial use)?

BTW, any plans to implement a library like SWI's prolog_trace?
<https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=prologtrace>
I am finding that quite useful for debugging.

-Julio

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Hi,

Since it does not have a module system, it is
not meant for large scale development. Its more
meant to create Prolog applets. This is why

it is name is Dogelog "Player", its like a Video Player,
only it plays Prolog applets. Maybe will bring
something more large scale to the web, like for

example Service Workers, where you could have
larger things than only Prolog applets to the
client side. But this has not yet been done...

Bye

P.S.: The architecture of Ciao Prolog Playground
with its Worker is more something beyond Prolog applets.
Dogelog "Player" doesn't feature such an architecture currently.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's more,
it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme for me as
it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years minimum:
I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

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Hi,

with applets becoming completely unable to be run
by 2015–2017. Java applets were deprecated by
Java 9 in 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet

The above is also a reason why I had to give
up formerly Jekejeke Prolog which was based on Java.
But I didn't give it up immediately in 2017,

there was like a grace period until 2021, where
I also did experiments with CheerpJ. Somehow
the Corona Pandemic gave me time to rethink

applets and invent the idea of Dogelog Player.
Dogelog Player wasn't realized for Python,
its very first implementation was JavaScript only.

The other platform followed out of curiosity
and since the Dogelog Player architecture allows
easily adding backends, without changing much of

the libraries. That async/await will be important,
I saw already when using CheerpJ. But CheerpJ doesn't
offer the small footprint, that Dogelog Player Novacore

now offers. Even if I would reduce formerly Jekejeke
Prolog, I would be still bugged by the CheerpJ load.
Novacore on the other hand is a ISO core subset,

that is optimized to be small.

Bye

P.S.: But please don't tell the morons from ISPsystem
who are now paying for jekejeke.ch domain, some
hosting and CDN, that applets don't work anymore.

They should find out by themselves.

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Since it does not have a module system, it is
not meant for large scale development. Its more
meant to create Prolog applets. This is why

it is name is Dogelog "Player", its like a Video Player,
only it plays Prolog applets. Maybe will bring
something more large scale to the web, like for

example Service Workers, where you could have
larger things than only Prolog applets to the
client side. But this has not yet been done...

Bye

P.S.: The architecture of Ciao Prolog Playground
with its Worker is more something beyond Prolog applets.
Dogelog "Player" doesn't feature such an architecture currently.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's
more, it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical
sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme
for me as it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years
minimum: I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

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Hi,

Let me recap:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

a community that works on the Prolog system itself?
But I am not 100% whether this is true, I saw
an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

Maybe there will be suddently a new release? An
indicator that it is really dead could be their
GitHub issues and GitHub commits.

https://github.com/didoudiaz/gprolog

Last commit 12 months ago but a lot of new issues.
Thats really bad. Thats is "no support" right?

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's more,
it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme for me as
it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years minimum:
I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

Is ZIG based on GNU license. Does it matter?
Their GitHub looks extremly lively:

https://github.com/ziglang/zig

They use "The MIT License (Expat)". 957
contributors. Last commit 2 hours ago.

3k issues. Woa!

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:

Hi,

Let me recap:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

a community that works on the Prolog system itself?
But I am not 100% whether this is true, I saw
an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

Maybe there will be suddently a new release? An
indicator that it is really dead could be their
GitHub issues and GitHub commits.

https://github.com/didoudiaz/gprolog

Last commit 12 months ago but a lot of new issues.
Thats really bad. Thats is "no support" right?

Bye

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 00:43, Mild Shock wrote:

What you don't find in GNU Prolog is library(misc/spin),
or open/3 that can work with http: or https: . I even
don't know whether GNU is still a good license for

GNU Prolog is full of bugs and it is a dead project by now: what's
more, it is not the clean and mean base I would hope to fork from.

Dogelog looks much better in that and pretty much every technical
sense: alas, it is not a viable licensing or even commercial scheme
for me as it is (it's a matter of support to begin with).

Indeed, consider that, as far as I am concerned, choosing a Prolog
engine is a commitment and an investment for the next 10 years
minimum: I develop libraries and tools, not just occasional apps.

Julio

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 24/11/2024 04:25, Mild Shock wrote:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

I just need a product that works properly, that isn't just spaghetti
code at all levels, and from a team/company that doesn't pull the rug,
or sabotages, or black mails me as soon as I am invested enough. I
could even pay for that, as we used to do for technology when software
and developing software was still a professional endeavour. And GNU has
little to do with any failure, except the failure of humanity that
humanity is: rather everybody is an MS/Google/Monsanto employee by now.

an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

That Unicode even enters these discussions is a joke. I'll just end up
writing my own Prolog engine: a GPL-licensed Prolog engine in JS/Wasm,
and an open project proper. Or maybe I'll just switch to Mizar... You
stay tuned: next black Friday.

-Julio

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On 24/11/2024 08:54, Julio Di Egidio wrote:

Or maybe I'll just switch to Mizar...

Eh, I meant Mercury, not Mizar:
<https://github.com/Mercury-Language/mercury>

Julio

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Hi,

I don't feel adressed by you critique. Since I
think the idea of an Prolog engine is the wrong
approach. The idea should be a Prolog language,

like the ISO core standard. SWI-Prolog did everything
to be different and better from the ISO core standard.
And ended up with a bloathed engine that runs

non-portable code. I did a little bit the same error
with formerly Jekejeke Prolog, it did not pay attention
to apply the KISS principle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

If would continue developing formerly Jekejeke Prolog
as I did in the past, I would introduce a module
class loader with advent of JDK 9, which would give

an additional layer of grouping to the Prolog modules.
Dogelog Player tries to do something else with its
Novacore. It tries to minimize the Prolog language

implemented by the Prolog engine. If you develop against
an idea of a Prolog language and not against an idea of
a Prolog engine, chances are higher that stay agile and

can easily switch Prolog engines, and protect your investment.

Bye

P.S.: Also with novacore its very hard. I wrote an
Novacore adapter for GNU Prolog:

https://www.novacuor.ch/srctab/doclet/docs/07_envir/adapter/gnu/package.html

But all Unicode test cases fail. Since GNU Prolog
cannot do Unicode.

But Unicode is part of Novacore.

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 04:25, Mild Shock wrote:

You want a GNU license, still you can demonstrate
that GNU licensing system failed in the case of
GNU Prolog to create a vital community especially

I just need a product that works properly, that isn't just spaghetti
code at all levels, and from a team/company that doesn't pull the rug,
or sabotages, or black mails me as soon as I am invested enough.  I
could even pay for that, as we used to do for technology when software
and developing software was still a professional endeavour.  And GNU has little to do with any failure, except the failure of humanity that
humanity is: rather everybody is an MS/Google/Monsanto employee by now.

an interesting fork somewhere that supported Unicode.

That Unicode even enters these discussions is a joke.  I'll just end up writing my own Prolog engine: a GPL-licensed Prolog engine in JS/Wasm,
and an open project proper.  Or maybe I'll just switch to Mizar...  You stay tuned: next black Friday.

-Julio

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On 24/11/2024 12:38, Mild Shock wrote:

I don't feel adressed by you critique. Since I
think the idea of an Prolog engine is the wrong
approach. The idea should be a Prolog language,
like the ISO core standard.

The ISO standard is *broken*, not just totally *inadequate* and totally *impractical*. Which of course is a contribution to, but is rather
orthogonal and additional to the problem of the sorry state of pretty
much the whole implementation compartment. And yet another side of that
coin is how it is all hijacked essentially by marketers, the very
rationale that goes with what it is, what it is good for, and how to use
and/or learn it. Happy you who are fine to keep playing that game.

SWI-Prolog did everything
to be different and better from the ISO core standard.
And ended up with a bloathed engine that runs
non-portable code. I did a little bit the same error
with formerly Jekejeke Prolog, it did not pay attention
to apply the KISS principle:

SWI-Prolog remains one of the best available of the non-commercial ones:
it does start failing under heavy duty, plus indeed in some even
critical areas it has been informed by decisions I couldn't agree less
with, but it's comparatively a reasonably decent product, and comes with
tons of libraries, a module system and an online package system, support
for code documentation and testing, native extensibility, constraint programming, and what-not: the whole shenanigan pretty much, and if it
had a JS runtime proper it would super. We are lucky that it exists,
publicly available, and kept alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

The level of incompetence in our field is shocking: <https://architectando.blogspot.com/2012/01/to-keep-it-simple-you-need-to-be-smart.html>

If you develop against
an idea of a Prolog language and not against an idea of
a Prolog engine, chances are higher that stay agile and
can easily switch Prolog engines, and protect your investment.

That was not even true once upon a time, that one can just develop for a "language". Then again, happy who is simply oblivious: maybe.

(EOD: I am done bashing and go back to building.)

-Julio

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What do you mean by that? I don't understand
your flat earth conspiracy theories that are
now entering the discussion.

Are these hijackers with us, or maybe aliens that
landed with an UFO, or do you have an example of
hijacking something for marketing?

Note: Jekejeke Prolog is not an example, since
it was phased out. You cannot hijack Unicorns
that don't exist. Or maybe one can do it in your

fantasy? It was already phased out in 2021:

The Jekejeke Prolog runtime library **was** an interpreter
only implementation of Prolog written in 100% Java. [...]
The website www.jekejeke.ch has been retracted, and
links are defunct.
https://stackoverflow.com/tags/jekejeke/info

I don't know what the domain squaters of
jekejeke.ch will do. Their meta tag says:

"Text: Entdecken Sie die besten ausländischen
Online-Casinos in der Schweiz! Genießen Sie
spannende Spiele, attraktive Boni und sichere Einzahlungen.
Spielen Sie jetzt und erleben Sie erstklassiges Online-Glücksspiel
mit internationalen Anbietern. Ihr Abenteuer beginnt hier!" http://www.jekejeke.ch/

Julio Di Egidio schrieb:

On 24/11/2024 12:38, Mild Shock wrote:
coin is how it is all hijacked essentially by marketers, the very

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