PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.
Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it
reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My
initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.
I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).
I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
is.
Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
* the motherboard has built-in onboard video
** I can relate ;-)
On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.
Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.
I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).
I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
is.
Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
* the motherboard has built-in onboard video
** I can relate ;-)
Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?
Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
PC's broke.
Given what you describe sounds like the Win11 install possibly got
corrupted. Have you tried re-formatting the HDD and reinstalling the OS?
That was my first guess. Windows hosing itself isn't quite as common
as it used to be, but it's still an overly complicated system
(especially given its dependence on the registry).
But given that I've pulled the HDDs and the problem still persists, I
think I can rule that one out.
PC's broke. The big one. I was - fortunately - able to salvage the
data (includingly, most importantly, my Usenet archive, but also less essential stuff like work-files and email ;-) but I'm back to the
older PC for the nonce until I fix my main.
Not sure what's going on with it, though. I rebooted and it got stuck
on a blackscreen. All following reboots either hung, BSOD'd before it
reached the desktop, or dumped me into the 'recovery environment'. My
initial guess was bad RAM, but all the tests show no problem. I've
yanked the HDD, peripherals, even the GPU*.. no change.
I'd suspect the PSU, except the power rails all show stable. I'm not
seeing abnormal temperatures on the CPU. The fans are all doing
they're thing. The PC will run code - it actually boots Linux from a
LiveCD with no problem - but any attempt to run Windows - whether from
the HDD, from a USB stick, or a WinPE DVD - and it hangs. It doesn't
like Windows 11**. It's a different BSOD everytime too (which sounds
like a RAM issue, except the RAM passes all its tests).
I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
is.
Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
* the motherboard has built-in onboard video
** I can relate ;-)
I'll try more diagnostics later but I'm running out of ideas. It has
to be either the motherboard, CPU, RAM, or PSU, and unfortunately I
don't have any replacements at hand to swap in for testing. I'm
hesitant to buy a replacement until I have some idea what the problem
is.
Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3 motherboard.
On 07/03/2024 10:15, Anssi Saari wrote:
Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3
motherboard.
Welcome to the world of future proof which is anything but. When I do my
big refreshes I just know that it will be MB + RAM + CPU. Also probably
the GPU as that still tends to be that thing that drives when I do an upgrade. PSU, generally ok. Storage that should be ok, at least for the moment as I don't see SATA going away anytime soon.
On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 18:31:28 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
Not really the way I wanted this day to go...
Yeah, I understand that. My computer not working is the equivalent of
my car not starting in the morning. Ugh.
On 3/7/2024 4:34 AM, JAB wrote:
On 07/03/2024 10:15, Anssi Saari wrote:
Isn't that the thing? Now that PCs are kinda mature, no one has spare
parts for anything relevant. Last time I had a PC problem, a few years
ago, my "spare parts" were in the form of classic PCI cards! I.e.,
completely useless for a motherboard with only PCI Express slots. Had
some old RAM sitting around too, probably DDR2, also useless for a DDR3
motherboard.
Welcome to the world of future proof which is anything but. When I do
my big refreshes I just know that it will be MB + RAM + CPU. Also
probably the GPU as that still tends to be that thing that drives when
I do an upgrade. PSU, generally ok. Storage that should be ok, at
least for the moment as I don't see SATA going away anytime soon.
I think you mean planned obsolesce.
Also NVMe replacing SATA especially on laptops.
On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon so
it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means that
you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is part of
the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type of thing
Apple would do.
On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 09:46:44 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 11:06:10 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On 3/6/2024 7:33 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:37:08 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 3/5/2024 3:31 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
PC's broke.
So it looks like it /is/ an overclocking issue. Which is annoying
because I don't overclock.
My motherboard, on the other hand, DOES.
I was aware, of course, that ASUS motherboards supported overclocking.
I was also, in fact, aware that this option was enabled by default.
However, I had - wisely, I thought - disabled this feature as soon as
I got the PC. There's an option - almost the first option in the BIOS, actually - called "AI Overclock Tuner" that I made sure was disabled
from the start.
Unfortunately, this was not the only option restricting the BIOS from overclocking the CPU. There were a number of other options - labeled 'Multicore Enhancement' or 'CPU Optimizations' and similar - that
would automatically ramp up CPU frequency past the specced frequency
as CPU utilization rose. These were all enabled by default, and -
lacking clear definitions on what they did in the manual - I left them
alone. These settings often ramped the CPU up to 300MHz beyond the
rated speed of the CPU. In the beginning, this didn't cause any issue
but eventually this behavior started causing memory issues (first
noticed as corrupt ZIP archives) and, finally, with the computer
BSODing whenever Windows tried to boot.
Figuring out which options it was safe to disable was a challenge;
there is no clear documentation. But even with all the 'turbo mode'
features disabled, I was still running into problems, because many of
the default CPU settings were set scarily high.
Example: The 13900K & 14900K processors are rated by Intel
for a 'long duration power limit' (basically, 'normal mode
power usage') of 125W. The BIOS default? 253W. The
'short duration power limit' (where the CPU ramps up briefly
for 'turbo mode', usually lasting only a few seconds) has
a specified limit of 253W. The BIOS default?
4096W.
Jesus-fucking-Christ, ASUS!
I had to manually set a large number of options to fit within Intel's recommended standards. Once I did that, my PC started to reliably boot
again, to the point where I could start stress-testing the new
settings to ensure stability.
Normally, I don't have a problem with ASUS but now I see why other
people here have issue with them.
Obviously my CPU never actually had 4096W pumped into it (as evidenced
by the fact that it's not a pile of ash). Not only can't my PSU
provide that much juice, but I am sure that the voltage was probably throttled by hardware elsewhere on the board. The 4096W seems to me to
just be the motherboard's equivalent of 'this option isn't being
limited at all by the software'. It's still careless.
(It does speak volumes on the reliability and overhead built into
Intel's -K class processors that they survived this carelessness,
though.It's why I overpay for the -K class processors in the first
place, so that if something like this does happen, I'm provided some
modicum of protection.)
ASUS is completely to blame for this fiasco. Its 'enhancements' and 'optimizations' rode the CPU too heavily. It disguised the fact that
it was overclocking the CPU under misleading BIOS setting names. Even
when those features were disabled, its voltage settings were
carelessly high. It lacked documentation explaining what those
settings did.
I might have come to a quicker solution to this problem had ASUS BIOS
not been so misleading. Overclocking issues were one of the first
things I considered, after all. But the obvious settings were disabled
in the BIOS, so it /couldn't/ be an overclocking problem. Except, as
it turns out, it was.
My PC isn't fully functional yet, but at least now I'm on track to
getting it back into working order again. The current plan is to find
a stable CPU ratio (it looks like its rated 5500 will be sufficient;
its only if it goes above that do problems start showing up), then
stress test it for a while to ensure it can maintain stability at that
speed. Only after that will I reinstall the other hardware, NVMes, and
check the status of the OS. It'll probably take a week or so but in
time, I will be back on my main PC again.
Eventually I'll have to decide if I want to replace the motherboard
and CPU. But if I can get it stable, it may be a while before that
happens, even if I'm forced to underclock it a bit. CPU/motherboards
are expensive!
But if I do replace, my next motherboard definitely won't be an ASUS.
On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
part of the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type
of thing Apple would do.
Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
been doing that on iphones for some time.
I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get
them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote at 21:48 this Friday (GMT):
On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P
On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means >>>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
part of the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type
of thing Apple would do.
Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put >>> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
been doing that on iphones for some time.
I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get >>> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
Sadly, probably more common than you'd think.
On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P
On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
part of the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type
of thing Apple would do.
Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
been doing that on iphones for some time.
I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers
over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get
them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
On 3/8/2024 5:31 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote at 21:48 this Friday (GMT): >>> On 3/8/2024 7:27 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:Non-standard is the new standard, didn't you know? :P
On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon >>>>> so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means >>>>> that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
part of the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type >>>>> of thing Apple would do.
Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put >>>> it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's >>>> been doing that on iphones for some time.
I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers >>>> over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as >>>> any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get >>>> them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in >>>> with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
Sadly, probably more common than you'd think.
As someone who used to work with 911 call centers, no, not really.
I'm not opposed to M.2 NVMe mounts. M.2 is, after all, faster since it directly accesses PCIE (even if most drives can't match the interface
speed yet). It's smaller form-factor has advantages too. You can also
more easily apply cooling directly to the M.2 sticks.
On 3/8/2024 1:15 AM, JAB wrote:
On 07/03/2024 17:41, Justisaur wrote:
Is that really a problem though as SATA isn't going away anytime soon
so it's difficult to see that NVMe becoming more and more common means
that you can't for example upgrade your storage unless the NVMe is
part of the MB - do they do that as it sounds exactly like the type
of thing Apple would do.
Soddering the memory directly to the board isn't new, and I wouldn't put
it past manufactuers for storage on a stick, like you mentioned apple's
been doing that on iphones for some time.
I've not seen it done laptops and NVMe yet, but multiple manufacturers over-tightens the screws so severely you basically can't remove it, as
any attempt strips the screw, and requires so much force that you're
bending the PCB visibly which really isn't good for the laptop. To get
them out I've had to resort to using pliers on the screw head (I've
tried all the other hacks like rubber bands, etc.) which crushes the
screw. I've had trouble getting the right screws to put them back in
with as well, all I can think is they used some non standard screw.
HP is also supplying very off brand NVMe storage that is causing
bluescreens, so we've been having to replace them.
On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 13:46:50 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
On 3/8/2024 8:20 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
PC's broke.
Congratulations on the impressive detective work.
Thanks... although I'm not sure it's deserved, given how long it took
me to figure it all out. ;-)
The primary PC is (mostly) back together now; all that's left is to
fasten the chassis covers and plug in the external peripherals. I'm benchmarking and stress-testing it as I type this. It looks like my
computer is now 5-10% slower than it should compared to synthetic
benchmarks for its processor due to the underclocking. I may be able
to up the clock a bit, but at the moment I'm hesitant to experiment.
The difference reall isn't at all noticable anyway, except in
benchmarks. I doubt I'd notice it at all in games, especially as most
games are limited by their GPUs far more than their CPUs.
I probably could have solved this problem faster, except
a) since I had a functional backup PC, there was no essential need
for a fast solve,
b) I only had a limited amount of time every day to play
with the computers (made even shorter by how little
light gets into the study during winter months). At
most, I fiddled with the busted PC an hour a day tops,
and a lot of that time was spent just rebooting (usually
from a slow external CD-ROM drive),
and
c) the whole incident just annoyed me so much that I didn't
want to bother with it. Especially after I figured out
the it was the default settings of the motherboard that
had triggered the whole thing.
I have to (grudgingly) give kudos to Microsoft's operating system.
Despite the many, many, MANY BSODs and hard shutdowns the OS suffered
through - most of them at boot-up - when I finally did solve the
issue and reinstalled the HDD, Windows ran as if nothing had gone
awry. This despite the fact that - attempting to troubleshoot the
problem - I had instructed Windows to reset (and later do a clean
reinstall) in hopes that would solve the problem. But since the
hardware kept crashed the OS, it never got very far in that process.
Still, I fully expected I'd have to reinstall the OS. But nope,
Windows came through it all very cleanly.
So, current plan is more stress-testing, then finally button it all
up, copy all the files I worked on using the backup PC to the hopefully-repaired primary, stress test some more and then finally
decide it's 'safe' to use it as my primary again. After which I can
hopefully put this whole nonsense episode behind me.
So, current plan is more stress-testing, then finally button it allHey, I used to do tech support for the dispatch systems used in 911 centers. (And this wasn't script-monkey tech support, if it was a code problem I was expected to correct the code and distribute the fix so it
up, copy all the files I worked on using the backup PC to the
hopefully-repaired primary, stress test some more and then finally
decide it's 'safe' to use it as my primary again. After which I can
hopefully put this whole nonsense episode behind me.
could be applied as part of the next regular update.) Sometimes that
kind of slow repetitive grind is how you get it done.
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they
do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving
of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I
can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at
a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more
capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
On 3/11/2024 2:45 AM, JAB wrote:
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they
do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving
of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I
can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at
a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more
capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it
feels like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price
for the base product then you won't mind doing the same for increasing
the specs. I did quickly check on some of the option prices and to say
they are taking the pee is an understatement. To go from 512GB/8GB to
1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even mention that for the
base price it seems rater underpowered to start with.
Price has never been a selling point with Apple products.
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they
do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving
of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I
can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at
a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more
capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it feels
like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price for the
base product then you won't mind doing the same for increasing the
specs. I did quickly check on some of the option prices and to say they
are taking the pee is an understatement. To go from 512GB/8GB to
1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even mention that for the
base price it seems rater underpowered to start with.
On 10/03/2024 03:02, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
So, current plan is more stress-testing, then finally button it allHey, I used to do tech support for the dispatch systems used in 911
up, copy all the files I worked on using the backup PC to the
hopefully-repaired primary, stress test some more and then finally
decide it's 'safe' to use it as my primary again. After which I can
hopefully put this whole nonsense episode behind me.
centers. (And this wasn't script-monkey tech support, if it was a code
problem I was expected to correct the code and distribute the fix so it
could be applied as part of the next regular update.) Sometimes that
kind of slow repetitive grind is how you get it done.
Something I learned pretty early in my career was that you get two types
of bugs, those that you almost know where the problem is straight away
and those that require a more methodical approach.
The ones I really hated where when they turned out to be a problem with
the hardware.
On 3/11/2024 7:22 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/11/2024 2:45 AM, JAB wrote:Actually it is a selling point as an excuse for the user to claim
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they >>>> do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving
of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I >>>> can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at
a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more
capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it
feels like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price
for the base product then you won't mind doing the same for increasing
the specs. I did quickly check on some of the option prices and to say
they are taking the pee is an understatement. To go from 512GB/8GB to
1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even mention that for the
base price it seems rater underpowered to start with.
Price has never been a selling point with Apple products.
superiority over the lesser masses.
On 3/11/2024 7:22 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/11/2024 2:45 AM, JAB wrote:Actually it is a selling point as an excuse for the user to claim
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they >>>> do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving
of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I >>>> can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at
a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more
capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it
feels like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price
for the base product then you won't mind doing the same for
increasing the specs. I did quickly check on some of the option
prices and to say they are taking the pee is an understatement. To go
from 512GB/8GB to 1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even
mention that for the base price it seems rater underpowered to start
with.
Price has never been a selling point with Apple products. >>
superiority over the lesser masses.
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 11:02:47 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On 3/11/2024 8:02 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 3/11/2024 7:22 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/11/2024 2:45 AM, JAB wrote:Actually it is a selling point as an excuse for the user to claim
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they >>>>>> do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving >>>>>> of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I >>>>>> can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at >>>>>> a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more >>>>>> capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the
highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it
feels like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price >>>>> for the base product then you won't mind doing the same for
increasing the specs. I did quickly check on some of the option
prices and to say they are taking the pee is an understatement. To go >>>>> from 512GB/8GB to 1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even
mention that for the base price it seems rater underpowered to start >>>>> with.
Price has never been a selling point with Apple products. >>
superiority over the lesser masses.
I should've said "low price." or "price/performance"
It's the whole wine thing. It's good because it costs more.
Although it would equally be wrong to dismiss Apple's engineering
chops. They /do/ make some good hardware (even if sometimes I disagree
with the philosophies behind the design). It's not as if you're paying
Apple prices and getting Compaq results. You can be fairly sure that,
by buying Apple, you're getting good components put together
competently.
But still, it's not worth the premium they charge... especially if you compare price-to-performance.
But Apple gets away with it because they are a luxury brand. They're
like Rolex; nobody is really expecting a Rolex to somehow tell time
better so much more accurately than a $20 Casio. You're paying for the
style and cachet of the device. Likewise, Apple. Their computers are
fine; reliable, generally performative and (usually) with solid design philosophy behind them. But it's not really like there's anything an
Apple computer/phone/etc can do that a less expensive brand couldn't.
On 3/11/2024 3:25 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 11:02:47 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On 3/11/2024 8:02 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 3/11/2024 7:22 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/11/2024 2:45 AM, JAB wrote:Actually it is a selling point as an excuse for the user to claim
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they >>>>>>> do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving >>>>>>> of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I >>>>>>> can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at >>>>>>> a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more >>>>>>> capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the >>>>>>> highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it
feels like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price >>>>>> for the base product then you won't mind doing the same for
increasing the specs. I did quickly check on some of the option
prices and to say they are taking the pee is an understatement. To go >>>>>> from 512GB/8GB to 1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even >>>>>> mention that for the base price it seems rater underpowered to start >>>>>> with.
Price has never been a selling point with Apple products. >>
superiority over the lesser masses.
I should've said "low price." or "price/performance"
It's the whole wine thing. It's good because it costs more.
Although it would equally be wrong to dismiss Apple's engineering
chops. They /do/ make some good hardware (even if sometimes I disagree
with the philosophies behind the design). It's not as if you're paying
Apple prices and getting Compaq results. You can be fairly sure that,
by buying Apple, you're getting good components put together
competently.
But still, it's not worth the premium they charge... especially if you
compare price-to-performance.
But Apple gets away with it because they are a luxury brand. They're
like Rolex; nobody is really expecting a Rolex to somehow tell time
better so much more accurately than a $20 Casio. You're paying for the
style and cachet of the device. Likewise, Apple. Their computers are
fine; reliable, generally performative and (usually) with solid design
philosophy behind them. But it's not really like there's anything an
Apple computer/phone/etc can do that a less expensive brand couldn't.
Tell that to the people who make music and computer art.
Something I learned pretty early in my career was that you get two types
of bugs, those that you almost know where the problem is straight away
and those that require a more methodical approach.
That's about my experience too.
The ones I really hated where when they turned out to be a problem with
the hardware.
Never really worked with hw but I'd imagine that would be really
annoying.
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 15:33:20 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>which platform was better, PC or Apple. He's retired so not up on what
wrote:
On 3/11/2024 3:25 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 11:02:47 -0700, Justisaur <justisaur@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On 3/11/2024 8:02 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 3/11/2024 7:22 AM, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/11/2024 2:45 AM, JAB wrote:Actually it is a selling point as an excuse for the user to claim
On 09/03/2024 15:38, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Fortunately, Apple isn't totally committed to the ideal, although they >>>>>>>> do tend to swing back and forth over the years. I'd be more forgiving >>>>>>>> of the attitude if Apple didn't charge a premium for their products. I >>>>>>>> can accept extremely limited and locked down hardware if it's sold at >>>>>>>> a cut-rate price, but Apple's prices suggest you're getting a more >>>>>>>> capable machine than others, and too often their 'our way or the >>>>>>>> highway' attitude is in opposition to that.
I tend to agree and the other thing I don't like about them is it >>>>>>> feels like the attitude is as you're prepared to pay a premium price >>>>>>> for the base product then you won't mind doing the same for
increasing the specs. I did quickly check on some of the option
prices and to say they are taking the pee is an understatement. To go >>>>>>> from 512GB/8GB to 1TB/16GB is a whopping £400. That's not to even >>>>>>> mention that for the base price it seems rater underpowered to start >>>>>>> with.
Price has never been a selling point with Apple products. >>
superiority over the lesser masses.
I should've said "low price." or "price/performance"
It's the whole wine thing. It's good because it costs more.
Although it would equally be wrong to dismiss Apple's engineering
chops. They /do/ make some good hardware (even if sometimes I disagree
with the philosophies behind the design). It's not as if you're paying
Apple prices and getting Compaq results. You can be fairly sure that,
by buying Apple, you're getting good components put together
competently.
But still, it's not worth the premium they charge... especially if you
compare price-to-performance.
But Apple gets away with it because they are a luxury brand. They're
like Rolex; nobody is really expecting a Rolex to somehow tell time
better so much more accurately than a $20 Casio. You're paying for the
style and cachet of the device. Likewise, Apple. Their computers are
fine; reliable, generally performative and (usually) with solid design
philosophy behind them. But it's not really like there's anything an
Apple computer/phone/etc can do that a less expensive brand couldn't.
Tell that to the people who make music and computer art.
Back-in-the-day, Macintoshes had a definite advantage in those fields.
The Macintosh, with its well-designed GUI and WYSIWYG interface was
perfect for desktop publishing, and apps like Photoshop and
Illustrator followed. Similarly, Macs were superior in low-latency
sound (thanks in part to SCSI drives being more common on that
platform), which gave it advantage over PCs in sound production
(although: Amiga ;-). Although stuff like ProTools was available on PC
too, musicians gravitated toward Macs.
But there's little real reason to pick Mac over PC anymore. In fact,
until two or three years ago, most Macs /were/ PCs, and shared all the technical advantages (and disadvantages) of the platform.
Macs are still often picked as the 'go-to' machines for DTP and music,
but that is more out of inertia than any real benefit to using the
platform. Mostly, it boils down to, "I've been using Macs for twenty
years and I don't want to switch".
I asked someone I know who used to do TV/Movie special effects about
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