• Re: Bug#1094969: git linked with OpenSSL

    From Pirate Praveen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 14 10:20:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel
    To: 1094969@bugs.debian.org

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  • From Robert Edmonds@21:1/5 to Russ Allbery on Mon Apr 14 18:30:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel

    Russ Allbery wrote:
    I think the situation here is this dependency chain:

    libcurl-gnutls -> libldap2 -> libssl

    (There may be others; I didn't do a thorough check. Does anyone know if there's a tool that will recursively analyze a binary's NEEDED sections
    and build a human-readable graph of the library dependencies?)

    I see the following with "libtree -vvv" (output trimmed by hand to just
    the paths to libcrypto or libssl):

    /usr/lib/git-core/git-remote-https
    ├── libcurl-gnutls.so.4 [ld.so.conf]
    │ ├── libldap.so.2 [ld.so.conf]
    │ │ ├── libcrypto.so.3 [ld.so.conf]
    │ │ ├── libssl.so.3 [ld.so.conf]
    │ │ └── libsasl2.so.2 [ld.so.conf]
    │ │ ├── libcrypto.so.3 [ld.so.conf]
    │ ├── libssh2.so.1 [ld.so.conf]
    │ │ ├── libcrypto.so.3 [ld.so.conf]

    --
    Robert Edmonds
    edmonds@debian.org

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  • From Sam Hartman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 14 18:50:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel, linux.debian.devel.release

    "Chris" == Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> writes:

    Chris> brian m. carlson (one of the git upstream copyright holders)
    Chris> claims in Bug #1094969 that git cannot be distributed when
    Chris> linked with OpenSSL. IIRC the Debian position is to use the
    Chris> system library exception.


    TL;DR: I think that an individual upstream copyright holder's
    interpretation should be given less rather than more weight in
    interpreting a license.
    I think that Debian should adopt a project-wide interpretation of the
    system library exception and apply it inconsistently. Allowing the
    exception to be interpreted differently on different packages harms our
    users and the free software community.

    here is a longer proposal on how I would recommend approaching an issue
    like this:

    1) Debian maintainers have a lot of flexibility. If the Git maintainers

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  • From Sam Hartman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 14 19:10:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel, linux.debian.devel.release

    "Chris" == Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> writes:

    Chris> brian m. carlson (one of the git upstream copyright holders)
    Chris> claims in Bug #1094969 that git cannot be distributed when
    Chris> linked with OpenSSL. IIRC the Debian position is to use the
    Chris> system library exception.

    [This was prematurely sent]

    TL;DR: I think that an individual upstream copyright holder's
    interpretation should be given less rather than more weight in
    interpreting a license.
    I think that Debian should adopt a project-wide interpretation of the
    system library exception and apply it inconsistently. Allowing the
    exception to be interpreted differently on different packages harms our
    users and the free software community.

    here is a longer proposal on how I would recommend approaching an issue
    like this:

    1) Debian maintainers have a lot of flexibility. If the Git maintainers
    wish to change what they link with, they have that flexibility. I view
    this more as "Upstream asked us to ship the software differently and we
    decided to disagree." I do not think an NMU has this level of preference.


    2) The people involved need to be comfortable with their legal
    liability. If Debian were a legal entity this would be easy: we would
    ask for legal review and make a decision after receiving it. Such a
    decision would typically be made at a fairly high level as to whether a particular issue posed unacceptable legal risk. To the extent that any
    party is concerned about their legal liability, please discuss in private--probably by first reaching out to the DPL and asking how to
    engage with lawyers. Do not discuss the specifics of the situation
    except in private mail (not copying a bug) with the lawyers.

    3) Generally, copyright holders trying to interpret a license after the
    fact should be given less weight rather than more. After all the
    copyright holder could have chosen a different license or published a clarification along with their release. Clearly if it turns out that
    the system library exception does apply in this situation, but Git wants
    it not to for git-remote-https, then effectly they copyright holders
    would be creating a fork of GPL-2 (gpl-2-restrictive-system-library)
    that is GPL 2 incompatible.
    Allowing copyright holders to do that after the fact--especially when
    they selectivly try to enforce that interpretation against some parties
    but not others--serves the community poorly.


    4) We should interpret the system library exception consistently. If we
    believe it allows us to link with openssl, we should stick to that
    position.
    I think it is cleare that software freedom and our users are served by
    letting free software link with Openssl. (I understand some parties
    argue that the consequences of interpreting the system library exception
    in a manner that permits that linking are worse than the consequences
    of avoiding GPL-2 OpenSSL combinations.)
    However our position does generally seem to be that we interpret the
    system library exception as allowing that linking.
    If our interpretation is challenged, we should respond the same way we
    would to any other legal challenge to software freedom.
    We should seek out people who have aligned interests and try and find
    common cause. In this instance I'd definitely suggest the DPL reach out
    to Canonical and Redhat.

    5) If a license is being interpreted in a manner that discriminates
    against Linux distributions--it allows everyone but Linux distributions
    to distribute some combination--I think that license discriminates
    against a kind of use/field of endeavor. In other words, such a license
    would not be DFSG free.

    --Sam

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  • From Simon Josefsson@21:1/5 to Richard Laager on Tue Apr 15 06:20:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel

    Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> writes:

    As I have said before: I think that computer programmers have a
    tendency to treat licenses as if they are self-executing (and precise
    like software).

    Agreed, this is often a challenge when technical people discuss legal
    matters, and it helps to keep this in mind.

    From what I can tell, the legal system does not operate that way, and
    actual lawyers make distinctions based on harm/damages or lack
    thereof.

    My experience with lawyers is that circumstances, expectations and
    intentions are more relevant than damages. Damages are more relevant
    when assessing compensation, not when deciding who is right.

    If someone has a claim to something and reasonable can expect certain
    things in a situation, and that is violated, there is a legal case even
    if you can make a technical argument that the person is wrong citing
    various paragraphs in return. This is often frustrating for technical
    people, feeling they are "right" and that circumstances doesn't matter.

    I think Debian should take the position that Apache-2.0 and
    GPL-2.0-only are compatible in practice.

    I don't think that is a good position to be in. I believe it would be
    better to work with rights holders to work out problems rather than to
    ignore requests and throw legal arguments at them.

    /Simon

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  • From Ansgar =?UTF-8?Q?=F0=9F=99=80?=@21:1/5 to Richard Laager on Tue Apr 15 08:10:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel

    Hi,

    On Mon, 2025-04-14 at 16:18 -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
    On 2025-04-14 11:10, Russ Allbery wrote:
    I do find it fairly hard to understand the logic behind a position that somehow our git-remote-https binary as distributed is a derived work of OpenSSL and thus violates the GPLv2 license based on the nature of this specific dependency chain, but then I was always dubious of the legal merits of FSF's extremely aggressive and maximalist position on the definition of derived works in the context of the GPLv2 license.
    [...]
    Now that OpenSSL is licensed under Apache-2.0, everyone agrees that
    GPL-3.0 and Apache-2.0 are compatible. As a result, anything that is GPL-3.0-only or GPL-3.0-and-later or GPL-2.0-or-later (or
    GPL-1.0-or-later) is fine. That probably covers most things.

    The remaining problem space is thus GPL-2.0-only, which is at issue
    here. The question is, are GPL-2.0-only and Apache-2.0 compatible? The
    FSF says no. As far as I can tell, the Apache Software Foundation
    doesn't necessarily agree with the FSF about this incompatibility, but respects their position on the issue. [1]

    No, that is not the core problem. Debian, like most other binary
    distributions, heavily relies on the system library exception in many,
    many places. OpenSSL is just one instance, but there is also, for
    example, libstdc++ which are not available under GPL-2-compatible
    terms.

    Note that GPL-2 says the following:

    +---
    | For an executable work, complete source
    | code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
    | associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to
    | control compilation and installation of the executable.
    +---

    Now parts of build scripts of packages that curl depends on are GPL-3- or-later, for example:

    - libnghttp2-14: m4/ax_python_devel.m4
    - libnghttp3-9: config.guess, config.sub
    - libc6: scripts/config.guess, scripts/config.sub
    - curl itself: config.guess, config.sub

    So these libraries cannot be distributed under GPL-2 unless someone
    changes the build system. (Note that common exceptions only apply for proprietary licenses, but don't allow to fulfill the GPL-2
    requirements.)

    (As an observation: GnuTLS is also not distributable under GPL-2-
    compatible terms as "[...], build system, [...] are licenced under the
    GNU General Public License version 3+". So using it instead of OpenSSL
    would not work either.)

    Header files, linker scripts, ... from GCC might also fall under this
    if the exception for compilers is not valid. Arguably GNU make too as
    it "control[s] compilation and installation of the executable". So Git
    would need to use a different compiler and make implementation. One can continue with the rest of the operating system like shells.

    All distributions thus rely on the system library exception to be able
    to distribute most GPL-2-only[1] or GPL-3-only[2] code at all...

    As Git doesn't seem any different, I think we should close this bug.

    If we think the system library exception is not valid, then we probably
    have to remove lots of software and switch core libraries (e.g., use
    clang, libc++ instead of gcc).

    Ansgar

    [1]: Even ignoring fun things like build scripts due to libstdc++ and
    similar.
    [2]: GPL-3 has the same problems, just in the other direction. Consider
    for example /usr/include/linux/*.h which gets indirectly included in
    many places.

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  • From brian m. carlson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 15 15:30:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel

    On 2025-04-15 at 05:58:42, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
    Hi,

    Hi,

    As Git doesn't seem any different, I think we should close this bug.

    I agree with you that we should close the bug, which I did a few minutes
    ago. I provided slightly different reasons in the close message, but I
    agree this would cause a lot of problems which we'd want to avoid and
    it's not in the interests of the project to pursue it further.

    My apologies for the needless controversy.
    --
    brian m. carlson (they/them)
    Toronto, Ontario, CA

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  • From Simon Josefsson@21:1/5 to ansgar@debian.org on Tue Apr 15 15:50:01 2025
    XPost: linux.debian.devel

    Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> writes:

    No, that is not the core problem. Debian, like most other binary distributions, heavily relies on the system library exception in many,
    many places.

    I believe that is a fairly new (~5 years?) approach within Debian.
    Debian used to treat OpenSSL incompatible with GPLv2 and that all code
    that link to OpenSSL has to have a GPL+OpenSSL exception. Does anyone
    recall how and when this decision was made?

    Licensing wrt to libcurl and OpenSSL has been discussed before:

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/08/msg00221.html

    /Simon

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