Hi,

Been using TBird for years, but can't seem to get a handle on my junk
mail settings. I can't figure out if the problem lies only in
Thunderbird, or perhaps my provider is doing something that I can change.

I have a couple different places I receive email from, and no matter
what I do, they end up in the junk mail folder. Not every time, for
some reason, but most of the time. I have reset the learn function in
the settings, but it doesn't seem to work. I right click or use the
file menu to mark the email as not junk. I have made sure the senders
are in my contact list. They still keep ending up in there in the junk
folder.

It seems that charter has added this X-header: X-chtr-JunkMail. It is
given a 1, which I assume means it is considered junk. Mail that get
through, does not have this header line. Even though it gets placed in
the junk folder, the little ion that looks like a fire or something
doesn't get highlighted. I assume this is because I have it in my
address book as a contact. Why then doesn't it ignore the header
completely and put it in my inbox?

Any suggestions on how I can fix this issue?
TIA

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

sticks wrote:

I have a couple different places I receive email from, and no matter
what I do, they end up in the junk mail folder.  Not every time, for
some reason, but most of the time.  I have reset the learn function in
the settings, but it doesn't seem to work.  I right click or use the
file menu to mark the email as not junk.  I have made sure the senders
are in my contact list.  They still keep ending up in there in the junk folder.

It seems that charter has added this X-header:  X-chtr-JunkMail.  It is given a 1, which I assume means it is considered junk.  Mail that get through, does not have this header line.  Even though it gets placed in
the junk folder, the little ion that looks like a fire or something
doesn't get highlighted.  I assume this is because I have it in my
address book as a contact.  Why then doesn't it ignore the header completely and put it in my inbox?

Any suggestions on how I can fix this issue?

I think you're trying to get Thunderbird to counter what Charter is
doing with messages at the time they're being received -- namely, moving messages into the junk folder, and before Thunderbird sees those messages.

For that, you need to be interacting with user-tuning of Charter's spam filters, and if you haven't done any work there, then you're relying on Charter's defaults, where it's it's easy to see both false-positives and
false negatives.

I've never seen Charter up close, but it's a good guess that they're
using SpamAssassin (or something similar) where there is what is called
a Bayesian filter. Bayesian can be quite accurate, but it needs user definitions of what you consider to be spam or not. The general rule of
thumb is that a Bayesian filter needs 100 examples of both spam and ham
to be maximally effective.

What you need to be doing is that when you see a false positive or a
false negative, go to Charter's web UI, view the message and use the
offered tool to designate the message as Spam or Not Spam. That will
inform the Bayesian filter, and subsequent messages that are
sufficiently similar will be evaluated the same way. In this case
"similar" is the entire message, including all header content and
message body (not just subject line or sender). As a result, it's not a problem to designate a message as Junk, even if it has the sender name
or even an address of somebody that legitimately sends you mail.

If you're seeing legitimate messages with X-chtr-JunkMail: set to 1,
telling Charter directly (via Not Spam) will cause you to see a lot more
of those set to 0 and where you don't have to bother with trying tune
handling in Thunderbird.

If Charter is shunting those messages into a Junk folder, it is possible
to un-shunt using various filters in Thunderbird to move stuff out of
the Junk folder and back to your inbox, but that's a lot of work on your
part, because you're effectively trying to get Thunderbird to override
the server's handling.

Because the server is actually interacting with the source of messages
at the time the message is being sent from the sender's server,
server-based tools are far more effective in handling spam (including sometimes, outright rejection) than anything that you can do with
Thunderbird post-delivery.

Although the Thunderbird tools for junk handling may have been useful in
the era of POP accounts running on dialup connections, and where
relaying through one or intermediate servers was common and server-based
spam filtering was not, in the current era of broadband and IMAP, it's
better to do your filtering with the server-based tools. And if you see false-positives or false negatives, use that as a reminder to make
adjustments at the server side, and don't bother with trying to do any
tuning in Thunderbird.

Smith

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/25/2021 10:45 AM, NFN Smith wrote:

sticks wrote:

I have a couple different places I receive email from, and no matter
what I do, they end up in the junk mail folder.  Not every time, for
some reason, but most of the time.  I have reset the learn function in
the settings, but it doesn't seem to work.  I right click or use the
file menu to mark the email as not junk.  I have made sure the senders
are in my contact list.  They still keep ending up in there in the
junk folder.

It seems that charter has added this X-header:  X-chtr-JunkMail.  It
is given a 1, which I assume means it is considered junk.  Mail that
get through, does not have this header line.  Even though it gets
placed in the junk folder, the little ion that looks like a fire or
something doesn't get highlighted.  I assume this is because I have it
in my address book as a contact.  Why then doesn't it ignore the
header completely and put it in my inbox?

Any suggestions on how I can fix this issue?

I think you're trying to get Thunderbird to counter what Charter is
doing with messages at the time they're being received -- namely, moving messages into the junk folder, and before Thunderbird sees those messages.

For that, you need to be interacting with user-tuning of Charter's spam filters, and if you haven't done any work there, then you're relying on Charter's defaults, where it's it's easy to see both false-positives and false negatives.

I've never seen Charter up close, but it's a good guess that they're
using SpamAssassin (or something similar) where there is what is called
a Bayesian filter.  Bayesian can be quite accurate, but it needs user definitions of what you consider to be spam or not. The general rule of
thumb is that a Bayesian filter needs 100 examples of both spam and ham
to be maximally effective.

What you need to be doing is that when you see a false positive or a
false negative, go to Charter's web UI, view the message and use the
offered tool to designate the message as Spam or Not Spam.  That will
inform the Bayesian filter, and subsequent messages that are
sufficiently similar will be evaluated the same way.  In this case
"similar" is the entire message, including all header content and
message body (not just subject line or sender).  As a result, it's not a problem to designate a message as Junk, even if it has the sender name
or even an address of somebody that legitimately sends you mail.

If you're seeing legitimate messages with X-chtr-JunkMail: set to 1,
telling Charter directly (via Not Spam) will cause you to see a lot more
of those set to 0 and where you don't have to bother with trying tune handling in Thunderbird.

If Charter is shunting those messages into a Junk folder, it is possible
to un-shunt using various filters in Thunderbird to move stuff out of
the Junk folder and back to your inbox, but that's a lot of work on your part, because you're effectively trying to get Thunderbird to override
the server's handling.

Because the server is actually interacting with the source of messages
at the time the message is being sent from the sender's server,
server-based tools are far more effective in handling spam (including sometimes, outright rejection) than anything that you can do with
Thunderbird post-delivery.

Although the Thunderbird tools for junk handling may have been useful in
the era of POP accounts running on dialup connections, and where
relaying through one or intermediate servers was common and server-based
spam filtering was not, in the current era of broadband and IMAP, it's
better to do your filtering with the server-based tools.  And if you see false-positives or false negatives, use that as a reminder to make adjustments at the server side, and don't bother with trying to do any
tuning in Thunderbird.

Smith

All excellent advise. I learned of the web based method you spoke of
last night, and am working now to get in as for some reason, my
passwords aren't working in Firefox. But I'll get that done tonight.
They call it my "whitelist." Though, several posts I read said it was
only somewhat effective.

Next I will try filtering to move messages back into the inbox, but like
you say, this is a pain.

Last, they admit sometimes they can't fix it, and the only option they
give to solve it for sure is to delete the junk folder completely.
Everything will then go to the inbox. This wouldn't bother me, and I
just might do it if I get no satisfaction from web based whitelist entries.

Thanks for your reply

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2021-03-24 23:35, sticks wrote:

Hi,

Been using TBird for years, but can't seem to get a handle on my junk
mail settings.  I can't figure out if the problem lies only in
Thunderbird, or perhaps my provider is doing something that I can change.

I have a couple different places I receive email from, and no matter
what I do, they end up in the junk mail folder.  Not every time, for
some reason, but most of the time.  I have reset the learn function in
the settings, but it doesn't seem to work.  I right click or use the
file menu to mark the email as not junk.  I have made sure the senders
are in my contact list.  They still keep ending up in there in the junk folder.

It seems that charter has added this X-header:  X-chtr-JunkMail.  It is given a 1, which I assume means it is considered junk.  Mail that get through, does not have this header line.  Even though it gets placed in
the junk folder, the little ion that looks like a fire or something
doesn't get highlighted.  I assume this is because I have it in my
address book as a contact.  Why then doesn't it ignore the header
completely and put it in my inbox?

Any suggestions on how I can fix this issue?
TIA

First, if you haven't done so already, create a Folder for each source.

Then craft a Filter that Moves those messages to the appropriate folder.
You can Customize the filter to use the X-Header, but IMO it will be
enough to filter on From.

Make sure you think through the logic of Match All vs Match Any. I had a
few problems when I was careless with those.

Best,

--
Wolf K
"You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is
right." Lyndon B. Johnson

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/25/2021 5:00 PM, sticks wrote:

On 3/25/2021 10:45 AM, NFN Smith wrote:

sticks wrote:

I have a couple different places I receive email from, and no matter
what I do, they end up in the junk mail folder.  Not every time, for
some reason, but most of the time.  I have reset the learn function
in the settings, but it doesn't seem to work.  I right click or use
the file menu to mark the email as not junk.  I have made sure the
senders are in my contact list.  They still keep ending up in there
in the junk folder.

It seems that charter has added this X-header:  X-chtr-JunkMail.  It
is given a 1, which I assume means it is considered junk.  Mail that
get through, does not have this header line.  Even though it gets
placed in the junk folder, the little ion that looks like a fire or
something doesn't get highlighted.  I assume this is because I have
it in my address book as a contact.  Why then doesn't it ignore the
header completely and put it in my inbox?

Any suggestions on how I can fix this issue?

I think you're trying to get Thunderbird to counter what Charter is
doing with messages at the time they're being received -- namely,
moving messages into the junk folder, and before Thunderbird sees
those messages.

For that, you need to be interacting with user-tuning of Charter's
spam filters, and if you haven't done any work there, then you're
relying on Charter's defaults, where it's it's easy to see both
false-positives and false negatives.

I've never seen Charter up close, but it's a good guess that they're
using SpamAssassin (or something similar) where there is what is
called a Bayesian filter.  Bayesian can be quite accurate, but it
needs user definitions of what you consider to be spam or not. The
general rule of thumb is that a Bayesian filter needs 100 examples of
both spam and ham to be maximally effective.

What you need to be doing is that when you see a false positive or a
false negative, go to Charter's web UI, view the message and use the
offered tool to designate the message as Spam or Not Spam.  That will
inform the Bayesian filter, and subsequent messages that are
sufficiently similar will be evaluated the same way.  In this case
"similar" is the entire message, including all header content and
message body (not just subject line or sender).  As a result, it's not
a problem to designate a message as Junk, even if it has the sender
name or even an address of somebody that legitimately sends you mail.

If you're seeing legitimate messages with X-chtr-JunkMail: set to 1,
telling Charter directly (via Not Spam) will cause you to see a lot
more of those set to 0 and where you don't have to bother with trying
tune handling in Thunderbird.

If Charter is shunting those messages into a Junk folder, it is
possible to un-shunt using various filters in Thunderbird to move
stuff out of the Junk folder and back to your inbox, but that's a lot
of work on your part, because you're effectively trying to get
Thunderbird to override the server's handling.

Because the server is actually interacting with the source of messages
at the time the message is being sent from the sender's server,
server-based tools are far more effective in handling spam (including
sometimes, outright rejection) than anything that you can do with
Thunderbird post-delivery.

Although the Thunderbird tools for junk handling may have been useful
in the era of POP accounts running on dialup connections, and where
relaying through one or intermediate servers was common and
server-based spam filtering was not, in the current era of broadband
and IMAP, it's better to do your filtering with the server-based
tools.  And if you see false-positives or false negatives, use that as
a reminder to make adjustments at the server side, and don't bother
with trying to do any tuning in Thunderbird.

Smith

All excellent advise.  I learned of the web based method you spoke of
last night, and am working now to get in as for some reason, my
passwords aren't working in Firefox.  But I'll get that done tonight.
They call it my "whitelist."  Though, several posts I read said it was
only somewhat effective.

Next I will try filtering to move messages back into the inbox, but like
you say, this is a pain.

Last, they admit sometimes they can't fix it, and the only option they
give to solve it for sure is to delete the junk folder completely.
Everything will then go to the inbox.  This wouldn't bother me, and I
just might do it if I get no satisfaction from web based whitelist entries.

Thanks for your reply

I used the web based Charter application to set the domain in the
whitelist, and also told their filters to put everything, even what they
marked as spam, in my inbox. Neither of my preferences mattered to
their software as the same thing happened to 4 more emails.

I then created a filter on my Thunderbird account, using the From header
line, and the same domain name to place messages placed in junk in the
inbox. This worked and incoming messages are now appearing in my inbox,
not marked as junk.

Thanks.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)