On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote in <ud7uop$23kbh$1@dont-email.me>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>: >>>vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain >>>>ASCII. Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their >>>>newsreader.
No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to receive >>>emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot display, the >>>followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's not complicated >>>to understand.
I do see your point, that is a problem. In some groups,
they aren't appropriate. As more and more newsreaders modernize, this >>will be less of a problem, I dare say.
(Last commit for pan was August 27th.)
It's not really about a newsreader modernizing. It's about whether one
is communicating in plain text. If one requires an emoji to communicate, that's not plain text communication.
This is my second draft of this article, the first being lost in a tragic
pan accident.
I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion should
go there. (See RFC citations below.)
Plain text is its own medium of communication. It uses words to communicate. It doesn't rely on specific fonts nor enhancements like
bold and italic and underline. Emojis are something else entirely. So
many are created so quickly that it eludes me how anybody uses them to communicate.
Executive summary: Standards for netnews user agents changed in 2009.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5536 [...]
2.3. MIME Conformance
User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME conformance in [RFC2049]
and MUST also support [RFC2231]. This level of MIME conformance
provides support for internationalization and multimedia in message
bodies [RFC2045], [RFC2046], and [RFC2231], and support for
internationalization of header fields [RFC2047] and [RFC2231]. Note
that [Errata] currently exist for [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047] and
[RFC2231].
[...snip...]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
And RFC 2049 section on MIME conformance: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2049#section-2 It's long; I won't quote it, except for this part:
-- Recognize other character sets at least to the
extent of being able to inform the user about what character
set the message uses.
[ As an aside: if it's going to inform the user, it might as well ask if
it should run some helper program to display the RFC-compliant message
that the news agent can't handle. ]
Anyway, I wonder: what is the ratio of compliant to non-compliant
user agents on Usenet?
And we're talking about an RFC dtd 2009 -- how much longer
will the sage gentlepersons of Usenet yore be
demanding "ASCII only"...another 14 years? ;)
Followup-To: news.software.readers
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"I doubt that I shall live so long. Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and
<ahk@chinet.com>
wrote in <ud7uop$23kbh$1@dont-email.me>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com>:
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain
ASCII. Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their
newsreader.
No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to
receive emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot
display, the followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's
not complicated to understand.
I do see your point, that is a problem. In some groups,
they aren't appropriate. As more and more newsreaders modernize,
this will be less of a problem, I dare say.
(Last commit for pan was August 27th.)
It's not really about a newsreader modernizing. It's about whether
one is communicating in plain text. If one requires an emoji to
communicate,
that's not plain text communication.
This is my second draft of this article, the first being lost in a
tragic pan accident.
I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion
should go there. (See RFC citations below.)
Plain text is its own medium of communication. It uses words to
communicate. It doesn't rely on specific fonts nor enhancements like
bold and italic and underline. Emojis are something else entirely. So
many are created so quickly that it eludes me how anybody uses them
to communicate.
Executive summary: Standards for netnews user agents changed in 2009.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5536 [...]
2.3. MIME Conformance
User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME conformance in
[RFC2049]
and MUST also support [RFC2231]. This level of MIME conformance
provides support for internationalization and multimedia in message
bodies [RFC2045], [RFC2046], and [RFC2231], and support for
internationalization of header fields [RFC2047] and [RFC2231]. Note
that [Errata] currently exist for [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047]
and [RFC2231].
[...snip...]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
And RFC 2049 section on MIME conformance:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2049#section-2 It's long; I
won't quote it, except for this part:
-- Recognize other character sets at least to the
extent of being able to inform the user about what
character set the message uses.
[ As an aside: if it's going to inform the user, it might as well ask
if it should run some helper program to display the RFC-compliant
message that the news agent can't handle. ]
Anyway, I wonder: what is the ratio of compliant to non-compliant user
agents on Usenet?
And we're talking about an RFC dtd 2009 -- how much longer will the
sage gentlepersons of Usenet yore be demanding "ASCII only"...another
14 years? ;)
my ancient Newsreader of choice, which alas is no longer maintained.
In any case, I find that cartoon faces in "Simpsons Yellow" or purple eggplants do not enhance my comprehension of Usenet articles.
There are so many emojis now (it seems that there are more every day)
that this old fart simply does not understand them. It's like kids
using ever-changing schoolyard jargon so that their parents won't know
what they're talking about. Harrumph.
Followup-To: news.software.readers
On Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:40:15 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote in <1qgm19f.11484qr1kmcdyhN%snipeco.2@gmail.com>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"I doubt that I shall live so long. Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and
<ahk@chinet.com>
wrote in <ud7uop$23kbh$1@dont-email.me>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com>:
Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain
ASCII. Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their
newsreader.
No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to
receive emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot
display, the followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's
not complicated to understand.
I do see your point, that is a problem. In some groups,
they aren't appropriate. As more and more newsreaders modernize,
this will be less of a problem, I dare say.
(Last commit for pan was August 27th.)
It's not really about a newsreader modernizing. It's about whether
one is communicating in plain text. If one requires an emoji to
communicate,
that's not plain text communication.
This is my second draft of this article, the first being lost in a
tragic pan accident.
I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion
should go there. (See RFC citations below.)
Plain text is its own medium of communication. It uses words to
communicate. It doesn't rely on specific fonts nor enhancements like
bold and italic and underline. Emojis are something else entirely. So
many are created so quickly that it eludes me how anybody uses them
to communicate.
Executive summary: Standards for netnews user agents changed in 2009.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5536 [...]
2.3. MIME Conformance
User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME conformance in
[RFC2049]
and MUST also support [RFC2231]. This level of MIME conformance
provides support for internationalization and multimedia in message
bodies [RFC2045], [RFC2046], and [RFC2231], and support for
internationalization of header fields [RFC2047] and [RFC2231]. Note
that [Errata] currently exist for [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047]
and [RFC2231].
[...snip...]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
And RFC 2049 section on MIME conformance:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2049#section-2 It's long; I
won't quote it, except for this part:
-- Recognize other character sets at least to the
extent of being able to inform the user about what
character set the message uses.
[ As an aside: if it's going to inform the user, it might as well ask
if it should run some helper program to display the RFC-compliant
message that the news agent can't handle. ]
Anyway, I wonder: what is the ratio of compliant to non-compliant user
agents on Usenet?
And we're talking about an RFC dtd 2009 -- how much longer will the
sage gentlepersons of Usenet yore be demanding "ASCII only"...another
14 years? ;)
my ancient Newsreader of choice, which alas is no longer maintained.
In any case, I find that cartoon faces in "Simpsons Yellow" or purple eggplants do not enhance my comprehension of Usenet articles.
There are so many emojis now (it seems that there are more every day)
that this old fart simply does not understand them. It's like kids
using ever-changing schoolyard jargon so that their parents won't know
what they're talking about. Harrumph.
Not all UTF-8 characters are emojis -- but you're right, not all
emojis are useful. However, some are.
Reminds me a bit of Greg Bear's _Eon_, where there were
two factions: the Geshels and the Naderites. The former
were high-tech, wearing cloths that would "pict" different
images depending on what they were saying.
And then there were the Naderites, worshipers of "The Good Man",
Ralph Nader. They were kind of Luddites, kind of like I'm
seeing from Sniperooni.
Followup-To: news.software.readers
You know, I used this header exactly
as it is intended to be used. But Mr. Bellicose
over there would rather snip the carefully-gathered
RFC standards data that shows his user agent
is non-compliant...apparently for 14 years.
The nerve of the guy. Telling _me_ what _I_ should
put in _my_ Followup-To:, an advisory header that he
could just have ignored (as he did anyway, thus
annoying readers who are probably as tired of this
crap as I am).
vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:[...]
On Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:40:15 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote in <1qgm19f.11484qr1kmcdyhN%snipeco.2@gmail.com>:
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
Anyway, I wonder: what is the ratio of compliant to non-compliant user >> agents on Usenet?I doubt that I shall live so long. Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and my ancient Newsreader of choice, which alas is no longer maintained.
And we're talking about an RFC dtd 2009 -- how much longer will the
sage gentlepersons of Usenet yore be demanding "ASCII only"...another
14 years? ;)
In any case, I find that cartoon faces in "Simpsons Yellow" or purple eggplants do not enhance my comprehension of Usenet articles.
There are so many emojis now (it seems that there are more every day) that this old fart simply does not understand them. It's like kids
using ever-changing schoolyard jargon so that their parents won't know what they're talking about. Harrumph.
Not all UTF-8 characters are emojis -- but you're right, not all
emojis are useful. However, some are.
Reminds me a bit of Greg Bear's _Eon_, where there were
two factions: the Geshels and the Naderites. The former
were high-tech, wearing cloths that would "pict" different
images depending on what they were saying.
And then there were the Naderites, worshipers of "The Good Man",
Ralph Nader. They were kind of Luddites, kind of like I'm
seeing from Sniperooni.
I've read it.
Luddism is nothing to be ashamed of when the 'New Pretender' has not yet
been shown worthy to supplant the old.
Followup-To: news.software.readers
You know, I used this header exactly
as it is intended to be used. But Mr. Bellicose
over there would rather snip the carefully-gathered
RFC standards data that shows his user agent
is non-compliant...apparently for 14 years.
The nerve of the guy. Telling _me_ what _I_ should
put in _my_ Followup-To:, an advisory header that he
could just have ignored (as he did anyway, thus
annoying readers who are probably as tired of this
crap as I am).
Please don't try to drag me into your spat with the poster in the
other group whom you have chosen not to name here. As it happens,
I'm actually more sympathetic to his standpoint than I am to yours.
Whatever, the two of you are unlikely to agree; News at Eleven.
Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and my ancient Newsreader of choice
Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and my ancient Newsreader of choice
[...]
Bother! 'accommodate', of course. [hangs head in embarrassment]
Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and my ancient Newsreader of choice
[...]
Bother! 'accommodate', of course. [hangs head in embarrassment]
ah come on mate, accomodate is fine!
On 9/12/23 09:48, vallor wrote:
I can still hear the teacher's words reverberating in my skull.Was your teacher a megaphone?
I can still hear the teacher's words reverberating in my skull.
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:18:29 -0500, candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote
in <udpvg5$1jul3$1@dont-email.me>:
On 9/12/23 09:48, vallor wrote:
I can still hear the teacher's words reverberating in my skull.Was your teacher a megaphone?
You mis-attributed Sn!pe's comment to me... ;)
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