• Ethnicity of Bilbo and Frodo

    From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 19 08:31:09 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    Due to the fact that Sméagol and Déagol lived on the banks of the
    Anduin, it is likely that they were Stoors.

    Were Bilbo and Frodo Harfoots? I thought that this was the case,
    but reading "Concerning Hobbits" several times doesn't give me
    any indication of this. Can anybody point me at some textev in
    tLotR for Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide?

    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Robert Woodward@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Mon Sep 19 09:37:56 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <tg9qut$13gsv$1@dont-email.me>,
    "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

    Due to the fact that Sméagol and Déagol lived on the banks of the
    Anduin, it is likely that they were Stoors.

    Were Bilbo and Frodo Harfoots? I thought that this was the case,
    but reading "Concerning Hobbits" several times doesn't give me
    any indication of this. Can anybody point me at some textev in
    tLotR for Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide?

    I believe that the Tooks were Fallohide or at least had significant
    Fallohide ancestry. Perhaps the Baggins also had Fallohide ancestors.

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. —-----------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Epstein@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Tue Sep 27 04:08:35 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    In alt.fan.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
    Due to the fact that Sm?agol and D?agol lived on the banks of the
    Anduin, it is likely that they were Stoors.

    Or proto-Stoors..."akin to the fathers of the fathers of the
    Stoors",as Gandalf put it.

    Were Bilbo and Frodo Harfoots? I thought that this was the case,
    but reading "Concerning Hobbits" several times doesn't give me
    any indication of this. Can anybody point me at some textev in
    tLotR for Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide?


    My impression is that Tolkien represented the division into Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide as something from centuries before the
    War of the Ring that had been progressively disappearing through
    intermixture since before the Shire was settled.

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to le@top.put.com on Wed Sep 28 09:09:46 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 04:08:35 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@top.put.com> wrote:

    In alt.fan.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
    Due to the fact that Sm?agol and D?agol lived on the banks of the
    Anduin, it is likely that they were Stoors.

    Or proto-Stoors..."akin to the fathers of the fathers of the
    Stoors",as Gandalf put it.

    Or neither. Just related to (ancient) Stoors.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Louis Epstein on Wed Sep 28 10:45:45 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    On 26/09/2022 23.08, Louis Epstein wrote:
    In alt.fan.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
    Due to the fact that Sm?agol and D?agol lived on the banks of the
    Anduin, it is likely that they were Stoors.

    Or proto-Stoors..."akin to the fathers of the fathers of the
    Stoors",as Gandalf put it.

    Were Bilbo and Frodo Harfoots? I thought that this was the case,
    but reading "Concerning Hobbits" several times doesn't give me
    any indication of this. Can anybody point me at some textev in
    tLotR for Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide?

    My impression is that Tolkien represented the division into Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide as something from centuries before the
    War of the Ring that had been progressively disappearing through
    intermixture since before the Shire was settled.

    This initially sounded good, but now I'm doubtful. Déagol found
    the Ring in SR 863, right? Shire Reckoning dates from the settling
    of the Shire, so the division into Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide had been progressively disappearing for a millennium or so ('before the
    Shire was settled'), yet we have a couple of proto-Stoors? I don't
    see how both of those can be right.

    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Epstein@21:1/5 to Michael F. Stemper on Sun Oct 2 18:49:03 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    In rec.arts.books.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 26/09/2022 23.08, Louis Epstein wrote:
    In alt.fan.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
    Due to the fact that Sm?agol and D?agol lived on the banks of the
    Anduin, it is likely that they were Stoors.

    Or proto-Stoors..."akin to the fathers of the fathers of the
    Stoors",as Gandalf put it.

    Were Bilbo and Frodo Harfoots? I thought that this was the case,
    but reading "Concerning Hobbits" several times doesn't give me
    any indication of this. Can anybody point me at some textev in
    tLotR for Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide?

    My impression is that Tolkien represented the division into
    Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide as something from centuries before the
    War of the Ring that had been progressively disappearing through
    intermixture since before the Shire was settled.

    This initially sounded good, but now I'm doubtful. D?agol found
    the Ring in SR 863, right? Shire Reckoning dates from the settling
    of the Shire, so the division into Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide had been progressively disappearing for a millennium or so ('before the
    Shire was settled'), yet we have a couple of proto-Stoors? I don't
    see how both of those can be right.

    Perusing the Tale of Years,I see that in 1356 TA some Stoors
    returned to Wilderland,while in 1630 TA others moved from
    Dunland to the nascent Shire where other Periannath had
    already settled.
    The Shire was a place of intermingling while the Wilderland
    Stoors had diverged rather than enter that melting pot.

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael F. Stemper@21:1/5 to Louis Epstein on Tue Oct 4 08:33:58 2022
    XPost: alt.fan.tolkien, rec.arts.sf.written

    On 02/10/2022 13.49, Louis Epstein wrote:
    In rec.arts.books.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 26/09/2022 23.08, Louis Epstein wrote:
    In alt.fan.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

    Were Bilbo and Frodo Harfoots? I thought that this was the case,
    but reading "Concerning Hobbits" several times doesn't give me
    any indication of this. Can anybody point me at some textev in
    tLotR for Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide?

    My impression is that Tolkien represented the division into
    Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide as something from centuries before the
    War of the Ring that had been progressively disappearing through
    intermixture since before the Shire was settled.

    This initially sounded good, but now I'm doubtful. D?agol found
    the Ring in SR 863, right? Shire Reckoning dates from the settling
    of the Shire, so the division into Stoor/Harfoot/Fallohide had been
    progressively disappearing for a millennium or so ('before the
    Shire was settled'), yet we have a couple of proto-Stoors? I don't
    see how both of those can be right.

    Perusing the Tale of Years,I see that in 1356 TA some Stoors
    returned to Wilderland,while in 1630 TA others moved from
    Dunland to the nascent Shire where other Periannath had
    already settled.
    The Shire was a place of intermingling while the Wilderland
    Stoors had diverged rather than enter that melting pot.

    That works for me. Thanks.

    --
    Michael F. Stemper
    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
    Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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