• deus ex machina

    From Rich D@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 14 14:44:28 2023
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.

    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    J.R.R. was evidently familiar the technique -

    --
    Rich

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  • From Julian Bradfield@21:1/5 to Rich D on Sat Apr 15 08:53:37 2023
    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
    answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:


    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk on Sat Apr 15 08:47:05 2023
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
    <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with) >answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:


    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
    be reduced to raising sheep for his family
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Steve Morrison@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sat Apr 15 16:41:38 2023
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:47:05 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
    <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with) >>answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:

    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
    be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Julian Bradfield on Sat Apr 15 10:23:03 2023
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield wrote:

    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with) answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:


    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

    They lost me at "That is, if Gandalf can ask a moth to bring him a
    giant eagle to rescue him from Saruman in The Fellowship of the
    Ring".

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to altillain@gmail.com on Sun Apr 16 08:46:08 2023
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison
    <altillain@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:47:05 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
    <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with) >>>answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:

    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
    be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    If you are responding to me:

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    If you are providing an alternate answer:

    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
    /LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sun Apr 16 11:50:16 2023
    On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    For some value of "rouse".

    In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Glóin says "Moria! Moria!
    Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
    nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
    children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.

    Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
    that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
    Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
    the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
    the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

    Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
    wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
    interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm on Mon Apr 17 08:18:33 2023
    On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:50:16 -0700, Stan Brown
    <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

    On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    For some value of "rouse".

    In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Glóin says "Moria! Moria!
    Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the >nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
    children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.

    Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
    that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
    Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
    the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
    the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

    Actually, that would satisfy my intended meaning for "arouse": not so
    much "wake up" as "attract the attention of".

    Sorry for any confusion.

    Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
    wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your >interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From Rich D@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Mon Apr 17 10:26:38 2023
    On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy?

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
    be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
    they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead. Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

    What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
    And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
    analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

    Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

    --
    Rich

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to rdelaney2001@gmail.com on Tue Apr 18 08:51:56 2023
    On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D
    <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:

    On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy?

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would >>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
    they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead. >Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

    IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
    served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
    and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
    elementals who, of course, served Melkor.

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

    What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
    And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
    analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

    Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
    to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

    And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
    anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

    Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

    Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.

    With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.

    Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
    ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
    Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.

    For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
    of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
    There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
    the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
    about this.

    Reading the books might be helpful.

    Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
    Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
    /Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From Axel Reichert@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue Apr 18 19:09:44 2023
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:

    IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
    served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
    and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

    One could as well argue that a Balrog would not feel inclined to serve
    another Maia. There is a prominent precedence with Saruman versus the
    other members of the White Council.

    Best regards

    Axel

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to mail@axel-reichert.de on Wed Apr 19 08:35:31 2023
    On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 19:09:44 +0200, Axel Reichert
    <mail@axel-reichert.de> wrote:

    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:

    IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
    served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
    and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

    One could as well argue that a Balrog would not feel inclined to serve >another Maia. There is a prominent precedence with Saruman versus the
    other members of the White Council.

    Gwaihir is not a Maia.

    It is the /Ring/ the Balrog would bow to.

    Try to keep up.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From Axel Reichert@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Wed Apr 19 20:37:17 2023
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:

    Gwaihir is not a Maia.

    Right, sorry, I was distracted/lost the context and was thinking about
    an imaginary conflict between Sauron and the Balrog.

    Best regards

    Axel

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  • From Steve Morrison@21:1/5 to Rich D on Wed Apr 19 21:32:32 2023
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 14:44:28 -0700, Rich D wrote:

    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.

    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    J.R.R. was evidently familiar the technique -

    Thinking about it, it seems to me that there /is/ a problem here.
    Granted that sending Eagles with the Ring wouldn't have worked because
    of the need for stealth and because of Mordor's "air defenses", the
    question becomes "How did they know this ahead of time?"

    The trouble is that at the time of the Council of Elrond, the winged
    Nazgul had never yet been seen. Remember that when the Fellowship
    first encountered one of them months later, they had no idea what they
    had just seen or what Legolas had shot down. So how did the Council
    /know/ that Sauron had servants who could attack an Eagle in the air?

    In any case, the idea should at least have been brought up at the
    Council, if only to be shot down by a wiser character. They did
    discuss ideas which were just as unworkable (Toss the Ring into the
    sea! Send it to Valinor! Give it to Tom Bombadil!)

    Thoughts?

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Steve Morrison on Wed Apr 19 17:06:36 2023
    On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 21:32:32 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison wrote:
    Thinking about it, it seems to me that there /is/ a problem here.
    Granted that sending Eagles with the Ring wouldn't have worked because
    of the need for stealth and because of Mordor's "air defenses", the
    question becomes "How did they know this ahead of time?"

    The trouble is that at the time of the Council of Elrond, the winged
    Nazgul had never yet been seen.

    True, but there are always arrows fired from the ground. In /The
    Hobbit/ \the eagles wouldn't take Thorin & Company anywhere near the
    dwellings of men because "They would shoot at us with their great
    bows of yew." And Orcs shot arrows too, so Sauron's ground-based
    defenses could have taken out the Eagles.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Wed Apr 19 16:56:01 2023
    On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
    Saruman (Curunír)? Maybe.

    But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
    yourself implied:

    Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

    Further example:

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
    centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
    Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.

    Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
    Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
    their battle.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm on Thu Apr 20 08:42:29 2023
    On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown
    <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

    On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
    Saruman (Curunír)? Maybe.

    Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
    might even have done it better.

    But neither were present when the need arose.

    Try to follow along, eh?

    But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
    yourself implied:

    Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

    I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
    known to work:
    1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
    2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
    3. Jump off into the water below.
    Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

    Further example:

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
    centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
    Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.

    Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
    Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
    their battle.

    The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.

    Falling into water from a great height has a tendency to be fatal.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From Rich D@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Thu Apr 20 11:28:17 2023
    On April 20, Paul S Person wrote:
    Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive.

    If Sorehead had conquered Middle Earth, would he
    treat Moria as a mine field?

    1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
    2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
    3. Jump off into the water below.

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
    centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
    Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.

    Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
    Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
    their battle.
    The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.

    Lotsa killin' and revenge in that world. Reminds me of the
    Old Testament, or maybe Texas -

    How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
    they were both of the same breed -

    --
    Rich

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  • From Julian Bradfield@21:1/5 to Rich D on Thu Apr 20 19:48:36 2023
    On 2023-04-20, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
    they were both of the same breed -

    Gandalf was reincarnated by divine intervention. Indeed, he was
    incarnated in the first place by divine intervention.
    The Balrogs, as Maiar, were presumably "incarnate" only in the same
    way as Sauron - becoming bound, but not irrevocably, to their favoured
    bodies by force of habit and spending of power.

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Rich D on Thu Apr 20 16:52:30 2023
    On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:28:17 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:
    How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
    they were both of the same breed -

    That was special one-time action by Eru. The Valar (specifically
    Manwë) had sent Gandalf to Middle-earth originally, with a lot of
    restrictions on his actions because the Valar were always afraid of
    overawing Men and Elves. But when Eru(*) sent Gandalf back to Middle-
    earth, he was given greater power as well as fewer restrictions. "The
    old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman."

    (*) I don't recall that this was stated explicitly in LotR, but it is
    stated in Letters, e.g. number 156.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Epstein@21:1/5 to Stan Brown on Tue May 2 04:31:01 2023
    Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
    On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    For some value of "rouse".

    In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Gl?in says "Moria! Moria!
    Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
    nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
    children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.

    Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
    that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
    Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
    the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
    the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

    Dain saw the Balrog on the occasion of his killing Azog...

    Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
    wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

    ...so any slumber would surely have not been that long.

    (Not sure if Stan needs to update his blockfile for my new email,
    but regardless,the Monarch retains the inalienable right to do
    AND the common sense not to do just about anything Stan claims
    he can not do).

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Epstein@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue May 2 04:32:24 2023
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison <altillain@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:47:05 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
    <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with) >>>>answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:

    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
    be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    If you are responding to me:

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    If you are providing an alternate answer:

    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
    /LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.

    The TLotR procedure involves chasing the Balrog from the base
    of a near-to-bottomless pit to the peak of Zirak-Zigil,so it's
    not necessarily that easy.

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Epstein@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue May 2 04:37:39 2023
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D
    <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:

    On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy?

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would >>>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is >>they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead. >>Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

    IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
    served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
    and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

    So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
    the Balrogs or not?

    (Another wrinkle in the conundrum of who is really the eldest of
    beings in Middle-Earth,beyond the contradictory claims of Treebeard
    and Bombadil).

    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
    elementals who, of course, served Melkor.

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

    What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
    And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
    analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

    Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
    to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

    Large number in First Age,indeterminate small number by Third...one
    should still be cautious even after the Third in declaring them
    extinct.

    And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
    anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

    Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

    Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.

    With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.

    Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
    ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
    Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.

    Some consider this settled in the affirmative.

    For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
    of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
    There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
    the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
    about this.

    Reading the books might be helpful.

    Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
    Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
    /Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Louis Epstein@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue May 2 04:39:40 2023
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown
    <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

    On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
    Saruman (Curun?r)? Maybe.

    Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
    might even have done it better.

    But neither were present when the need arose.

    Try to follow along, eh?

    But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
    yourself implied:

    Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

    I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
    known to work:
    1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
    2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
    3. Jump off into the water below.
    Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

    Not necessarily without chasing it up the Endless Stair
    afterward!!

    Further example:

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed F?anor some
    centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
    Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.

    Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
    Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
    their battle.

    The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.

    Falling into water from a great height has a tendency to be fatal.

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to le@main.lekno.ws on Tue May 2 08:06:51 2023
    On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:31:01 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

    Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
    On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:46:08 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    For some value of "rouse".

    In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Gl?in says "Moria! Moria!
    Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
    nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
    children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.

    Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
    that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
    Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
    the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
    the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

    Dain saw the Balrog on the occasion of his killing Azog...

    Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
    wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
    interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

    ...so any slumber would surely have not been that long.

    Which is why, in my reply to Stan, I noted that "rouse" was intended
    to mean something like "attract the attention of".

    (Not sure if Stan needs to update his blockfile for my new email,
    but regardless,the Monarch retains the inalienable right to do
    AND the common sense not to do just about anything Stan claims
    he can not do).

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to le@main.lekno.ws on Tue May 2 08:11:49 2023
    On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:32:24 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison
    <altillain@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:47:05 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
    <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
    ex machina' mean anything to you?

    This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with) >>>>>answer.

    Here's a recent presentation of the answer:

    https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would >>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
    have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    If you are responding to me:

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    If you are providing an alternate answer:

    That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
    hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
    the book.

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
    /LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.

    The TLotR procedure involves chasing the Balrog from the base
    of a near-to-bottomless pit to the peak of Zirak-Zigil,so it's
    not necessarily that easy.

    Having enough water at the bottom appears to help a lot.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to le@main.lekno.ws on Tue May 2 08:08:13 2023
    On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown
    <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

    On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
    Saruman (Curun?r)? Maybe.

    Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
    might even have done it better.

    But neither were present when the need arose.

    Try to follow along, eh?

    But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
    yourself implied:

    Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

    I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
    known to work:
    1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
    2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
    3. Jump off into the water below.
    Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

    Not necessarily without chasing it up the Endless Stair
    afterward!!

    Well, maybe that's what happens when the water isn't actually deep
    enough.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to le@main.lekno.ws on Tue May 2 08:10:52 2023
    On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D
    <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:

    On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
    At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
    volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
    Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
    central plot of the trilogy?

    Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
    because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would >>>>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family

    The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would >>>>> have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

    Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
    puppy and do no such thing.

    This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is >>>they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead. >>>Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

    IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
    served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
    and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

    So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
    the Balrogs or not?

    Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.

    So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
    Maiar.

    (Another wrinkle in the conundrum of who is really the eldest of
    beings in Middle-Earth,beyond the contradictory claims of Treebeard
    and Bombadil).

    BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
    why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
    task.

    In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
    elementals who, of course, served Melkor.

    Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
    1. Be high up.
    2. Grab onto Balrog.
    3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

    What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
    And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
    analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

    Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
    to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

    Large number in First Age,indeterminate small number by Third...one
    should still be cautious even after the Third in declaring them
    extinct.

    And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
    anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

    This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

    Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

    Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.

    With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.

    Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
    ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
    Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.

    Some consider this settled in the affirmative.

    For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
    of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
    There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
    the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
    about this.

    Reading the books might be helpful.

    Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
    Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
    /Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.

    -=-=-
    The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
    at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue May 2 16:59:41 2023
    On Tue, 02 May 2023 08:10:52 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:
    So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
    the Balrogs or not?

    Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.

    So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
    Maiar.

    A fuller version of the quote is:

    "'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
    Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
    dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
    Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
    gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
    than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
    darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
    hope' ..."

    I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
    between the Balrog and those "nameless things".

    But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
    Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
    descended to Arda before Sauron did.

    Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
    of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
    Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
    true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
    reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
    on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm on Wed May 3 09:50:40 2023
    On Tue, 2 May 2023 16:59:41 -0700, Stan Brown
    <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

    On Tue, 02 May 2023 08:10:52 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
    <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:
    So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
    the Balrogs or not?

    Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.

    So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
    Maiar.

    A fuller version of the quote is:

    "'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
    Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
    dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
    Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
    gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
    than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
    darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
    hope' ..."

    I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
    between the Balrog and those "nameless things".

    But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
    Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
    descended to Arda before Sauron did.

    Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
    of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
    Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
    true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
    reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
    on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

    Thanks for this info!
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich D@21:1/5 to Stan Brown on Wed May 3 14:10:57 2023
    On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
    Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
    reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
    on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

    The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
    one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

    Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

    --
    Rich

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Rich D on Thu May 4 05:01:13 2023
    On Wed, 3 May 2023 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:

    On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
    Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
    reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
    on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

    The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.

    God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
    Ents.

    Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
    "gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
    the creation of the world and entered into it, the
    greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
    helpers or servants.

    So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

    Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
    killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
    looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
    Balrog would be the same.

    Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
    Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
    because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
    him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
    lost and Sauron faded away.

    Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

    Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
    the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
    That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
    they ended.(*)

    So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
    was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
    back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

    "Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
    and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
    tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
    my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
    are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
    position in /Letters/.


    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
    Tolkien letters FAQ:
    https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
    FAQ of the Rings:
    https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
    Encyclopedia of Arda:
    https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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  • From Julian Bradfield@21:1/5 to Rich D on Thu May 4 14:05:41 2023
    On 2023-05-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
    one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

    Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

    Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
    rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
    discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
    and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.

    The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
    by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
    bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
    that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
    one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing silently.

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm on Thu May 4 08:24:51 2023
    On Thu, 4 May 2023 05:01:13 -0700, Stan Brown
    <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

    On Wed, 3 May 2023 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:

    On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
    Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
    reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
    on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

    The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.

    God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
    Ents.

    Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
    "gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
    the creation of the world and entered into it, the
    greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
    helpers or servants.

    So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
    segregated into several chambers?

    Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
    killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
    looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
    Balrog would be the same.

    Saruman, at least, looked to the West (IIRC) before disappating. So
    this may mean that he was refused re-entry to the Blessed Land rather
    than it being a natural result.

    Well, unless good ol' Manwe bound them in such a way that they could
    /never/ come back, of course.

    Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
    Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
    because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
    him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
    lost and Sauron faded away.

    Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

    Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
    the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
    That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
    they ended.(*)

    So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
    was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
    back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

    I don't recall any others either.

    "Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
    and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
    tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
    my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
    are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
    position in /Letters/.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk on Thu May 4 08:26:04 2023
    On Thu, 4 May 2023 14:05:41 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
    <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

    On 2023-05-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
    The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
    one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

    Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

    Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
    rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
    discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
    and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.

    The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
    by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
    bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
    that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
    one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing >silently.

    Or they are banned from Valinor as having served Morgoth and so have
    nowhere else to go.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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