So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level?
I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice exceptionally
well.
I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz. However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no other
speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
70
kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor? Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the balance?
I have other speakers I could use but these just sound so damn good otherwise.
Re-discovering music from my past through these is amazing, music I've been listening to for decades has new stuff in it... (A cliche but very true in this case.)
I tried using a pair of Goodmans Mezzo IIs (that I've always liked) for a
few
days but they are lacking in the very upper frequencies (likely due to the 32mm SEAS tweeter). I want the highs to be there but not in a piercing way.
Input appreciated.
--
Shaun.
I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice exceptionally well.
I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz. However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no other
speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
70
kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor? Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the balance?
In article <hal5lsFoga8U1@mid.individual.net>,
~misfit~ says...
So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave >> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level?Try the acoustic disrupter method:-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue_paper#Acoustic_disrupter
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range.
I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.
Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially asspeaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.
Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there.
Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.
I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too >high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great >near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice >exceptionally
well.
On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being >> dissipated in the high range.
**Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem.
interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is perceived audible problems in an audio system.
And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
are overly bright, we should start there.
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.
I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.
Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as
Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failingboth these things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.
Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.
What are you using for a pre-amp/power amp and/or integrated amp? Does it have tone controls? A small cut to the treble might solve this neatly. But:
I run an AR Athena sub-sat system in my office - via a Dynaco PAS-3x & ST-35. Given that even though I am "the boss", I am in an office environment so I keep the volume low.
Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That capabilitywent out of style more-or-less in the 1980s. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.
The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.
so there might be relevant info there. I'm using a very basic pre-amp with no tone controls and a certain Dynaco ST120 power amp. There is a pass-through crossover between the two taking everything below 70Hz to a 10" subwoofer as described in anotherpost.
capability went out of style more-or-less in the 1980s. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That
I've been watching auctions for good quality EQs but unfortunately anything other than used
gimmicky plastic 90s things (that people seem to ask new prices for) are well beyond my price range.
The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.
On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 1:29:45 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being >> dissipated in the high range.
**Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem.
AAT the kind of frequencies the original poster is talking
about, it is almost certinaly NOT a room problem. It would
be about the LAST thing I would go looking after.
Room and speaker/room
interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
perceived audible problems in an audio system.
Not at the kinds of high frequency (>10 kHz) the poster is taking
about, no.
In all the speakers I have measured in rooms, and that number is
not inconsiderable, the higher frequencies, and especially that
region around and above 10 kHz, shows the closest approach to the
anechoice response of the loudspeaker.
Why? For it to be a room problem, you have to have a LOT of paths
(and by "a lot", I mean the preponderance of all possible paths)
whose length is proximal to whiole number multiples of eithe 1/4
or 1/2 a wavelenngth to within a high degree of precision (maybe
+- a few degrees total phase error), and we're talking wavelength
on the order of an inch or less. Further, all these paths must have
a very low total absorption along the paths.
And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
are overly bright, we should start there.
I would suggest this will be a fruitless pursuit.
Now, if it was just a LITTLE lower in frequency, like a factor
a hundred times lower, you might have a case.
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is
being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter
is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if
the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start
there.
A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a
reasonable amount of high frequency content.
(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the
other day and there were 'tinkling' noises in one track that I could
hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o plus musicians
were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)
I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither
is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how
we perceive sound at various volumes.
Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer,
especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office.
At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass
driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency
drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.
I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume
is set higher than it would be if I were listening to compressed pop or
rock music. I sometimes listen to music while computer gaming and it can
be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.
I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are. It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small
business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a home office.
Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness"
function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the
bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue
than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it
possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room
corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the
bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.
The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer
amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The crossover takes
away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the
300W MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.
I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90
and 120Hz) as I want to preserve as much directional information from
low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem to handle
frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.
The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago. It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced
sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when compared to ported
subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but
I'm fine with that.
Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more
heroic measures.
Cheers,
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.
Please note the interpolations.
post.so there might be relevant info there. I'm using a very basic pre-amp with no tone controls and a certain Dynaco ST120 power amp. There is a pass-through crossover between the two taking everything below 70Hz to a 10" subwoofer as described in another
I see that. And you mentioned that the Sub amp has a level-control. Have you tried boosting that just a bit?
capability went out of style more-or-less in the 1980s. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That
do not need two. So, to you it would be cost-of-shipping, not inconsiderable.
I've been watching auctions for good quality EQs but unfortunately anything other than used
gimmicky plastic 90s things (that people seem to ask new prices for) are well beyond my price range.
The SE-10 I mentioned came my way for $0, as it was perceived as totally dead from the BIN (Buy-it-Now) pile at Kutztown. You will notice that the fuse is inside... and missing in the example I found. As I have my original example purchased as a kit, I
The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.
Getting back to your sub-amp. I am assuming that it is strapped for a single output at 300 watts into 4 ohms.
For the record, driving 2N3773s in that configuration to 300 watts is wildly optimistic. Much as one *can* operate a Ford Focus engine at 6,000 RPM - just not for very long.
All that aside, I also understand that particular amp sometimes has a problem amplifying mains current hum? When I looked it up, I saw no associated power-supply (or, to be fair, no transformer) or diode/capacitor block. Just a "suggested power supply"http://home.alphalink.com.au/~cambie/PM300/PM300.htm I would also 'fix' the bias (replace the pots) for stability, once you are sure of the proper value(s). A number of US manufacturers used pots back in the day - and as the pots went open, all that
Cutting to the chase, try playing around with the bass output levels, and keep in mind that pretty much anything below 500 HZ is non-directional in any case - such that distance between the treble source and bass source (and you) are the governingfactors, not direction. Leading to having the bass source, ideally, the same physical distance from your ears as the treble source. Do also verify phasing - speakers out-of-phase give all sorts of unhappy effects.
Some "stuff" on that: https://us.kef.com/blog/how-to-get-the-most-out-of-your-subwoofer-phase-and-positioning
Some further experimentation with placement may be in order.
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.
**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."
Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny number posses harmonics of
significant levels that exceed 10kHz.
Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect you are clipping your
amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to
shut down any myths you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate excessive high
frequency harmonics if over-driven.
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-5, ~misfit~ wrote:
I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too >> high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
exceptionally well.
I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz. >> However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
other
speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to >> listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to >> 70
kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave >> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor? >> Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
balance?
I would posit that what you find irritating is not the presence of
stuff above 15 kHz, but stuff below that. And if there IS a lot of
HF material, especially extended bandwidth material (and I'd give
at least even odds there is NOT), then what you are finding annoying
is the result of some non-linear process in the speakers.
To put it bluntly, I would not be the least bit surprised to find
that something in your speakers (or, more generally, somewhere in
your system) is broken. It could be a mechanical problem in the
tweeters like a buzz or rattle problem, there could be some electronic
issue somewhere, all of which is if there IS very high frequency
information, generating signal at a level higher enough and a frequency
low enough that it would be EASILY audible to you if isolated.
That's the suspect I would be pursuing, knowing what I know about
such things.
On 12/02/2020 11:19 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too >> high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
exceptionally
well.
I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz. >> However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
other
speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to >> listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to >> 70
kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave >> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor? >> Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
balance?
I have other speakers I could use but these just sound so damn good
otherwise.
Re-discovering music from my past through these is amazing, music I've been >> listening to for decades has new stuff in it... (A cliche but very true in >> this case.)
I tried using a pair of Goodmans Mezzo IIs (that I've always liked) for a
few
days but they are lacking in the very upper frequencies (likely due to the >> 32mm SEAS tweeter). I want the highs to be there but not in a piercing way.
Input appreciated.
--
Shaun.
**If your hearing is attenuated at HF, then you don't need to further attenuate HF (assuming the
speaker has been competently designed). You've already stated that you can't hear anything above 16
~ 17kHz. Perhaps you should consider room effects. Have you measured the in-room response?
On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the
high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of
the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives
that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.
A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
frequency content.
(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70
y/o plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need to employ some room
treatments to deal with the problem.
I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room
acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.
Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one
does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets
to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are
88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.
I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it
would be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.
**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka: Clipping)? If so, then all bets
are off. You may need an amplifier with more output Voltage capability.
I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are.
It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc.
from a home office.
Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they
have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is
more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to
relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar
so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.
The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W MOSFET
amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.
**You're an Aussie then?
I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs
seem to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.
The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
fine with that.
Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.
**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should go a long way to solving
your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.
On 19/02/2020 11:14 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.
**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."
It seems to be higher.
FWIW I just did this on-line frequency hearing test: <http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html>
and through my monitor-mounted Dell soundbar (with 25mm drivers) I could
hear to just over 12.5kHz but through the stereo in question could only
hear to about 11.5kHz. That's quite a bit lower than the last time I
used a similar tool a few years back. Maybe those years when I spent
hours several nights a week at a mixing desk at live (loud) gigs in my
20s are coming back to bite me?
So now I'm a bit baffled. The issue I have is due to sounds at the
highest frequencies that I can hear and that seems to be ~11kHz with
this system in the current configuration. Maybe they have a peak about
there or are flatter than the other speakers I've tried...
Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny
number posses harmonics of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.
Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect
you are clipping your amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts
of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to shut down any myths
you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate
excessive high frequency harmonics if over-driven.
It's not clipping. The Dynaco ST120 I have hooked up at the moment is a solid-state amp and I no longer own any valve amps.
On 19/02/2020 8:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy
is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the
matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz
anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright,
we should start there.
A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a
reasonable amount of high frequency content.
(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the
other day and there were 'tinkling' noises in one track that I could
hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o plus musicians
were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need
to employ some room treatments to deal with the problem.
They sure don't seem to be and I don't have an analyser.
I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But
neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human
Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.
Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer,
especially given that one does not normally blast music in an
office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the
bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker
efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not
great either.
I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the
volume is set higher than it would be if I were listening to
compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.
**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka:
Clipping)? If so, then all bets are off. You may need an amplifier
with more output Voltage capability.
It's not clipping.
with the speakers.
I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where
my computer and desk are. It's a habit I picked up when I owned a
small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a home
office.
Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness"
function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the
bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more
at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these
things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more
towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to
help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice
sound-stage.
The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone
controls which goes through a crossover in a second-hand kitset
subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and
feeds it to the 300W MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover
points and a level control.
**You're an Aussie then?
I live in South Auckland.
I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70,
90 and 120Hz) as I want to preserve as much directional information
from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem to handle
frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.
The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm
MDF a couple of decades ago. It's a 10" driver in a ~40l
internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails
off below about 26Hz but I'm fine with that.
Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more
heroic measures.
**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should
go a long way to solving your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.
Thanks for the input Trevor. I live in rental accommodation and am
'under the sword' - the property could be sold to developers at any time
and I'll need to find somewhere else to live. (It's been that way since
the landlord warned me a year ago and there's a housing shortage here.)
So I'm not that keen on spending too much effort on room treatments.
More pressing is selling the surplus-to-requirements speakers and old Thinkpads etc. that are filling the back bedroom!
On 19/02/2020 12:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 8:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers inA lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute
fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP
perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there. >>>>
frequency content.
(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70
y/o plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need to employ some room
treatments to deal with the problem.
They sure don't seem to be and I don't have an analyser.
**They will, almost certainly, be below 5kHz.
I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room
acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.
Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one
does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets
to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are
88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.
I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it
would be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.
**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka: Clipping)? If so, then all bets
are off. You may need an amplifier with more output Voltage capability.
It's not clipping.
**How do you know?
I've tried different power amps and the problem is
with the speakers.
**Again: How do you know? How do you know that the room is not the problem?
I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are.**You're an Aussie then?
It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc.
from a home office.
Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If
they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak
bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it
possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the
floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice
sound-stage.
The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.)
The crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W
MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control. >>>
I live in South Auckland.
**Ah. We Aussies always forget about our Eastern state. :-)
I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs
seem to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off. >>>>
The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
fine with that.
Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.
**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should go a long way to solving
your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.
Thanks for the input Trevor. I live in rental accommodation and am 'under the sword' - the
property could be sold to developers at any time and I'll need to find somewhere else to live.
(It's been that way since the landlord warned me a year ago and there's a housing shortage here.)
So I'm not that keen on spending too much effort on room treatments. More pressing is selling the
surplus-to-requirements speakers and old Thinkpads etc. that are filling the back bedroom!
**Room treatments can be VERY, VERY cheap and easy to apply (temporarily). Old rugs, mattresses,
etc work just fine. In fact, back in the 1990s, I took part in a couple of hi fi shows in Las
Vegas. At one show, some other Aussies (Krix Loudspeakers) had their room near to mine. Their room
possessed extremely poor acoustics and the guys set about to rectify the situation as quickly and
inexpensively as possible. They used some old cardboard boxes, duct tape, a Doona™ cover and some
Dacron™. They constructed a false 'wall' from the cardboard and duct tape, measuring around 3.5
Metres X 2.5 Metres X 400mm. They filled it with the Dacron™ and covered the whole thing with the
Doona™ cover (for appropriate cosmetic effect). Problem solved at the cost of some Dacron™ and a
roll of duct tape.
I would encourage you to try room treatments, before you spend too much time, money and effort on
other things.
And to repeat: NOT SYMMETRICAL!
On 19/02/2020 1:02 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 11:14 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.
**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."
It seems to be higher.
**Until it has been measured, then we're both guessing. Few instruments go as high as 5kHz. There
is almost nothing beyond 10kHz in any music.
FWIW I just did this on-line frequency hearing test:
<http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html>
and through my monitor-mounted Dell soundbar (with 25mm drivers) I could hear to just over
12.5kHz but through the stereo in question could only hear to about 11.5kHz. That's quite a bit
lower than the last time I used a similar tool a few years back. Maybe those years when I spent
hours several nights a week at a mixing desk at live (loud) gigs in my 20s are coming back to
bite me?
So now I'm a bit baffled. The issue I have is due to sounds at the highest frequencies that I can
hear and that seems to be ~11kHz with this system in the current configuration. Maybe they have a
peak about there or are flatter than the other speakers I've tried...
**Until you perform some measurements, you're guessing. You could try to acquire a (preferably
digital) parametric equaliser and perform some measurements.
I still betcha room treatments will solve your problems. IME (which is substantial), room
treatments solve most mid-HF problems, PROVIDED there is nothing inherently wrong with the
equipment, or the amp is not being clipped.
Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny number posses harmonics
of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.
Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect you are clipping your
amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to
shut down any myths you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate excessive
high frequency harmonics if over-driven.
It's not clipping. The Dynaco ST120 I have hooked up at the moment is a solid-state amp and I no
longer own any valve amps.
**You've checked with a 'scope to ensure no clipping then? Or are you guessing again? It might
worth looking at the waveform on a 'scope to see if there are no parasitics present.
On 20/02/2020 10:44 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 1:02 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 11:14 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.
**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."
It seems to be higher.
**Until it has been measured, then we're both guessing. Few
instruments go as high as 5kHz. There is almost nothing beyond 10kHz
in any music.
FWIW I just did this on-line frequency hearing test:
<http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html>
and through my monitor-mounted Dell soundbar (with 25mm drivers) I
could hear to just over 12.5kHz but through the stereo in question
could only hear to about 11.5kHz. That's quite a bit lower than the
last time I used a similar tool a few years back. Maybe those years
when I spent hours several nights a week at a mixing desk at live
(loud) gigs in my 20s are coming back to bite me?
So now I'm a bit baffled. The issue I have is due to sounds at the
highest frequencies that I can hear and that seems to be ~11kHz with
this system in the current configuration. Maybe they have a peak
about there or are flatter than the other speakers I've tried...
**Until you perform some measurements, you're guessing. You could try
to acquire a (preferably digital) parametric equaliser and perform
some measurements.
I still betcha room treatments will solve your problems. IME (which is
substantial), room treatments solve most mid-HF problems, PROVIDED
there is nothing inherently wrong with the equipment, or the amp is
not being clipped.
Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very
tiny number posses harmonics of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.
Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I
suspect you are clipping your amplifier. Clipping can generate large
amounts of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to shut down
any myths you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL
generate excessive high frequency harmonics if over-driven.
It's not clipping. The Dynaco ST120 I have hooked up at the moment is
a solid-state amp and I no longer own any valve amps.
**You've checked with a 'scope to ensure no clipping then? Or are you
guessing again? It might worth looking at the waveform on a 'scope to
see if there are no parasitics present.
Of course I'm guessing. I know this is rec.audio.high-end but I don't
have (or have access to) a parametric equaliser or an o'scope. When I
say I'm not listening at low 'office level' volumes I also don't mean ear-bleeding party volumes. Maybe somewhere in the 'half volume' range
on a 60 - 80 wpc amp... I've currently got a Marantz Stereo Reciever
SR4023 hooked up set to 'flat' (it has a pre/power loop for the
subwoofer amp) and the issue is the same - but the amp belongs elsewhere.
However I have used these speakers with a few different amplifiers,
(from 25 watts /channel class A up to 160 w/c RMS) and at different
volumes and in different locations and the issue I perceive persists.
I realise that without measuring we're all making educated guesses.
Really I just wanted to know what to add to the speaker crossovers /
tweeter wires to attenuate frequencies above say 10kHz by maybe 3db (and
not attenuate the crucial frequencies where female vocals and the upper reaches of electric guitar solos and harmonics reside).
I have to question the suggestion of a device with exclusively XLR inputs and outputs (1/4" phone jacks for auxiliary output) for a non-commercial Audio 2.0 application.
**Why? XLRs are very good connectors. They're robust, easy to wire up
and earth makes first and breaks last. Adapters are easy to source.
On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 3:36:32 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Why? XLRs are very good connectors. They're robust, easy to wire up
and earth makes first and breaks last. Adapters are easy to source.
Because:
The system in question is a home audio system.
The system in question is quite vintage, using RCA jacks exclusively.
The individual asking for suggestions is of limited means, physically and, likely, financially.
The individual in question may have to move on short notice.
Adapters may be easy to source, but that does not make the cost of the equalizer together with the four (4) adapter needed cheap.
Generally, when giving advice, it is both courteous and common sense to make the suggestions fit the conditions at hand, and not add needless levels of complexity.
Snark Warning!
This pretty much summarizes my approach to speaker placement. There are overly bright rooms,
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