On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an >e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put
them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
My wife is a great example. Her favorite bike is a Jamis Dakar MTB 3x9
Deore. Even on the moderate hills around here on the road (with
semi-slicks) hills are very challenging. Sure, she's in the granny doing
6 mph on a 3% grade, but it's still a lot of work for a casual cyclist.
Last year in Ireland we rented bikes. She got an E-bike (on my
insistence) and I got a regular bike (same basic bike, but with no
motor). She flew up hills much longer and steeper than anything around
here with little effort, leaving me behind gasping for air.
Try telling her she'd do just as well with an "appropriately" geared
bike, and you'll get her classic 'you really can't be that clueless' glare.
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle ><funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an >>e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put >>them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
That makes no sense. Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a >bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
A bicycle is driven by the person sitting on it, that determines how it
is ridden. For a great part, this depends on how much power that person
can deliver and for how long, both short term, for looking at a single
ride, and in the long run.
This isn't a static relation. Quite the opposite, how hard you exercise
your muscles while cycling and how long you train your cardiac system >influences how much you gain - or lose - in strength and endurance. A >motorized bicycle, on the other hand, makes most of this unnecessary, as
it reduces these constraints and incentives to almost nothing. All that >remains is the illusion of riding a bike.
A little bit of history and context, plus some technical details.
For about two hundert years now, the common understanding of the term
bicycle is a human powered vehicle with two or more wheels and one or
more crank drives.
Now there exists this modern equivocal term "pedal assistance" though,
which has been ridden to death to justify calling a class of low powered >motorcycles bicycles, suggesting that most of the power still comes from
the person riding the bike. Unfortunately, it ain't so, for a long time
now.
In Germany, the campaign began with the term pedelec being used to
describe e-bikes with pedal assistance that only support up to 100% of
the rider's power and up to 25 km/h. Only when e-bikes were legally
treated as bicycles in some respects,these motorized bicycles were >increasingly referred to as bicycles in the media.
The actuall law that was enacted says something completely different:
there is actually no formal limit to how much power the motor driving a
25 km/h-E-Bike may deliver and there is no capacity limit, about how
long a motor may power the bike, either. So the two characteristics that
make up a bicycle were eliminated: the limited amount of power and
endurance that a person can muster.
Of course, besides the cut-off at 25 km/h, there still is some kind of
limit, often mentioned to downplay the amount of motorization:
"But, eh, there is a 250 watt limit!".
Sure, there is. But it is specified in a very specific way so that the >restriction has almost no teeth. It's called "Nenndauerleistung" in
German, or "nominal continuous power" in English. In essence, this again >specifies that there is no real limit. A 250 W e-Bike motor may deliver
500, 600 or even 1000 watts, as long as it doesn't spend more than 250
watts on average in a sliding 30 minute window.
That 100 percent limit which paved the way for this toothless regulation >didn't even get into European law at all. All we have is a rule that
the motor may not deliver power when the person sitting on the bike
stops pedaling for a while. Who hasn't yet seen some "food delivery
hero" on an electric bike riding their bike uphill by just turning the
crank half a turn forward and than backwards?
A Bosch motor easily delivers 600 Watt, it assists with up to 340% in >addition to the power the rider supplies, when using one of the old
"modes", or an unspecified amount plus some likewise unspecified
additional boost, when using one of the newer "intelligent" modes. And >that's just what the adds say, currently. It might even become 900 Watt
and 400%, next year, without breaking the rules.
What gives? Modern low powered electic mopeds could have become a nice >addition to range of motorized vehicles at the lower end, without this
coup of staging such a vehicle as a bicycle by combining the
disadvantages of an e-moped with the disadvantages of a bicycle. A
missed opportunity, with the result that many people are now forgoing
the benefits of real cycling and living unhealthier and more dangerous
lives by pseudo-cycling, instead.
My wife is a great example. Her favorite bike is a Jamis Dakar MTB 3x9 >>Deore. Even on the moderate hills around here on the road (with >>semi-slicks) hills are very challenging. Sure, she's in the granny doing
6 mph on a 3% grade, but it's still a lot of work for a casual cyclist.
For comparison:
I'm 71 years old now, my wife is not much younger. I've never been into >sports, neither is she. She could walk to work, I commuted by bike for >decades, had to give up cycling completely for quite some time after an >accident, but managed to gain some strength back, after retirement. Took
a while.
I did that by starting moderately in 2018, slowly expanding my range,
from initially less than 30 km and 200 meters of altitude gain, avoiding >steep ascends, to 140 km and almost 2000 meteres of altitude gain, in
spring this year.
About halve of those rides that go from the flat rhine valley into the
nearby hilly countryside, my wife and I did together. These where short >rides initially, from some 20-30 km and 200-300 m in altitude gain to
about 60 km and 600 m.
In the past, she had strictly refused to ride climbs that were steeper
than around six percent. "I just cannot do that", she said.
Of course, she couldn't, for the following reasons.
For context, we were using road bicycles that whe bought in early 2010,
for using them for vacations in the south of France, both equipped with
3x10 gears, drop bars, 25 mm slicks. After changing cassettes to the
lowest possible gear ratio, whe had 30 front, 30 rear on my bike, 30
front, 28 rear on her bike, good enough for both of us doing some longer
6-6 percent streches uphill and some short 7 percent ascents, but no
more.
Problems when riding uphill
* Riding up steeper hills using a 1:1 ratio or worse with a very low
cadence does reduce the necessary power (watts), but doesn't reduce the >necessary torque/force. Men have better prerequisites here.
* Riding uphill with a low power budget needs riding slowly, the
necessary riding technique has to be learned
* Stopping for that reason isn't easy to handle
* Riding slowly needs a good fitting bike
* A difficult to operate gearshift doesn't help concentrating on
pedaling and steering
In essence, while our old bikes where still more than good enough for
getting around quite a bit on flat and moderately steep ground and
getting better by just doing it often enough, there was a kind of
chicken and egg problem here, for riding uphill. You have to learn and >master riding up steep hills by just doing it. But how do you do that,
when you can't even start or ride that slowly, without tipping over,
because the cadence is far to low, initially?
After some research and a long trip through local bike shops, my
solution was to start the project with a professional bikefitting with
our old bikes, in order to get key values for new bikes. And then I
built two customized bikes myself, early last year. Problem solved.
She even rode up a long ascent, 9 percent average, including some short
10 and 12 percent parts, half a year later. Twice! "Let's look wether I
can do it again", she said.
These bikes weren't cheap, but E-bikes aren't that cheap, either, if you >don't buy complete thrash. It's just the question how in what to
invest, into an e-bike for getting instant gratification, or into a
better bike plus some time, for getting a delayed gratification,
combining two benefits, independence from a motor, and better health.
Last year in Ireland we rented bikes. She got an E-bike (on my
insistence) and I got a regular bike (same basic bike, but with no
motor). She flew up hills much longer and steeper than anything around
here with little effort, leaving me behind gasping for air.
Sure. An E-bike gives her something she doesn't get from a real
bicycle, instant gratification, without effort. This comes with a
price, though.
Try telling her she'd do just as well with an "appropriately" geared
bike, and you'll get her classic 'you really can't be that clueless' glare.
No comment.
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an
e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put
them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
That makes no sense. Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
A bicycle is driven by the person sitting on it, that determines how it
is ridden. For a great part, this depends on how much power that person
can deliver and for how long, both short term, for looking at a single
ride, and in the long run.
This isn't a static relation. Quite the opposite, how hard you exercise
your muscles while cycling and how long you train your cardiac system influences how much you gain - or lose - in strength and endurance. A motorized bicycle, on the other hand, makes most of this unnecessary, as
it reduces these constraints and incentives to almost nothing. All that remains is the illusion of riding a bike.
A little bit of history and context, plus some technical details.
For about two hundert years now, the common understanding of the term
bicycle is a human powered vehicle with two or more wheels and one or
more crank drives.
Now there exists this modern equivocal term "pedal assistance" though,
which has been ridden to death to justify calling a class of low powered motorcycles bicycles, suggesting that most of the power still comes from
the person riding the bike. Unfortunately, it ain't so, for a long time
now.
In Germany, the campaign began with the term “pedelec” being used to describe e-bikes with pedal assistance that only support up to 100% of
the rider's power and up to 25 km/h. Only when e-bikes were legally
treated as bicycles in some respects,these motorized bicycles were increasingly referred to as “bicycles” in the media.
The actuall law that was enacted says something completely different:
there is actually no formal limit to how much power the motor driving a
25 km/h-E-Bike may deliver and there is no capacity limit, about how
long a motor may power the bike, either. So the two characteristics that
make up a bicycle were eliminated: the limited amount of power and
endurance that a person can muster.
Of course, besides the cut-off at 25 km/h, there still is some kind of
limit, often mentioned to downplay the amount of motorization:
"But, eh, there is a 250 watt limit!".
Sure, there is. But it is specified in a very specific way so that the restriction has almost no teeth. It's called "Nenndauerleistung" in
German, or "nominal continuous power" in English. In essence, this again specifies that there is no real limit. A 250 W e-Bike motor may deliver
500, 600 or even 1000 watts, as long as it doesn't spend more than 250
watts on average in a sliding 30 minute window.
That 100 percent limit which paved the way for this toothless regulation didn't even get into European law at all. All we have is a rule that
the motor may not deliver power when the person sitting on the bike
stops pedaling for a while. Who hasn't yet seen some "food delivery
hero" on an electric bike riding their bike uphill by just turning the
crank half a turn forward and than backwards?
A Bosch motor easily delivers 600 Watt, it assists with up to 340% in addition to the power the rider supplies, when using one of the old
"modes", or an unspecified amount plus some likewise unspecified
additional boost, when using one of the newer "intelligent" modes. And that's just what the adds say, currently. It might even become 900 Watt
and 400%, next year, without breaking the rules.
What gives? Modern low powered electic mopeds could have become a nice addition to range of motorized vehicles at the lower end, without this
coup of staging such a vehicle as a bicycle by combining the
disadvantages of an e-moped with the disadvantages of a bicycle. A
missed opportunity, with the result that many people are now forgoing
the benefits of real cycling and living unhealthier and more dangerous
lives by pseudo-cycling, instead.
My wife is a great example. Her favorite bike is a Jamis Dakar MTB 3x9
Deore. Even on the moderate hills around here on the road (with
semi-slicks) hills are very challenging. Sure, she's in the granny doing
6 mph on a 3% grade, but it's still a lot of work for a casual cyclist.
For comparison:
I'm 71 years old now, my wife is not much younger. I've never been into sports, neither is she. She could walk to work, I commuted by bike for decades, had to give up cycling completely for quite some time after an accident, but managed to gain some strength back, after retirement. Took
a while.
I did that by starting moderately in 2018, slowly expanding my range,
from initially less than 30 km and 200 meters of altitude gain, avoiding steep ascends, to 140 km and almost 2000 meteres of altitude gain, in
spring this year.
About halve of those rides that go from the flat rhine valley into the
nearby hilly countryside, my wife and I did together. These where short rides initially, from some 20-30 km and 200-300 m in altitude gain to
about 60 km and 600 m.
In the past, she had strictly refused to ride climbs that were steeper
than around six percent. "I just cannot do that", she said.
Of course, she couldn't, for the following reasons.
For context, we were using road bicycles that whe bought in early 2010,
for using them for vacations in the south of France, both equipped with
3x10 gears, drop bars, 25 mm slicks. After changing cassettes to the
lowest possible gear ratio, whe had 30 front, 30 rear on my bike, 30
front, 28 rear on her bike, good enough for both of us doing some longer
6-6 percent streches uphill and some short 7 percent ascents, but no
more.
Problems when riding uphill
* Riding up steeper hills using a 1:1 ratio or worse with a very low cadence does reduce the necessary power (watts), but doesn't reduce the necessary torque/force. Men have better prerequisites here.
* Riding uphill with a low power budget needs riding slowly, the
necessary riding technique has to be learned
* Stopping for that reason isn't easy to handle
* Riding slowly needs a good fitting bike
* A difficult to operate gearshift doesn't help concentrating on
pedaling and steering
In essence, while our old bikes where still more than good enough for
getting around quite a bit on flat and moderately steep ground and
getting better by just doing it often enough, there was a kind of
chicken and egg problem here, for riding uphill. You have to learn and master riding up steep hills by just doing it. But how do you do that,
when you can't even start or ride that slowly, without tipping over,
because the cadence is far to low, initially?
After some research and a long trip through local bike shops, my
solution was to start the project with a professional bikefitting with
our old bikes, in order to get key values for new bikes. And then I
built two customized bikes myself, early last year. Problem solved.
She even rode up a long ascent, 9 percent average, including some short
10 and 12 percent parts, half a year later. Twice! "Let's look wether I
can do it again", she said.
These bikes weren't cheap, but E-bikes aren't that cheap, either, if you don't buy complete thrash. It's just the question how in what to
invest, into an e-bike for getting instant gratification, or into a
better bike plus some time, for getting a delayed gratification,
combining two benefits, independence from a motor, and better health.
Last year in Ireland we rented bikes. She got an E-bike (on my
insistence) and I got a regular bike (same basic bike, but with no
motor). She flew up hills much longer and steeper than anything around
here with little effort, leaving me behind gasping for air.
Sure. An E-bike gives her something she doesn't get from a real
bicycle, instant gratification, without effort. This comes with a
price, though.
Try telling her she'd do just as well with an "appropriately" geared
bike, and you'll get her classic 'you really can't be that clueless' glare.
No comment.
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an >>> e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put
them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
That makes no sense. Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a
bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
A bicycle is driven by the person sitting on it, that determines how it
is ridden. For a great part, this depends on how much power that person
can deliver and for how long, both short term, for looking at a single
ride, and in the long run.
This isn't a static relation. Quite the opposite, how hard you exercise
your muscles while cycling and how long you train your cardiac system
influences how much you gain - or lose - in strength and endurance. A
motorized bicycle, on the other hand, makes most of this unnecessary, as
it reduces these constraints and incentives to almost nothing. All that
remains is the illusion of riding a bike.
A little bit of history and context, plus some technical details.
For about two hundert years now, the common understanding of the term
bicycle is a human powered vehicle with two or more wheels and one or
more crank drives.
Now there exists this modern equivocal term "pedal assistance" though,
which has been ridden to death to justify calling a class of low powered
motorcycles bicycles, suggesting that most of the power still comes from
the person riding the bike. Unfortunately, it ain't so, for a long time
now.
In Germany, the campaign began with the term “pedelec” being used to
describe e-bikes with pedal assistance that only support up to 100% of
the rider's power and up to 25 km/h. Only when e-bikes were legally
treated as bicycles in some respects,these motorized bicycles were
increasingly referred to as “bicycles” in the media.
The actuall law that was enacted says something completely different:
there is actually no formal limit to how much power the motor driving a
25 km/h-E-Bike may deliver and there is no capacity limit, about how
long a motor may power the bike, either. So the two characteristics that
make up a bicycle were eliminated: the limited amount of power and
endurance that a person can muster.
Of course, besides the cut-off at 25 km/h, there still is some kind of
limit, often mentioned to downplay the amount of motorization:
"But, eh, there is a 250 watt limit!".
Sure, there is. But it is specified in a very specific way so that the
restriction has almost no teeth. It's called "Nenndauerleistung" in
German, or "nominal continuous power" in English. In essence, this again
specifies that there is no real limit. A 250 W e-Bike motor may deliver
500, 600 or even 1000 watts, as long as it doesn't spend more than 250
watts on average in a sliding 30 minute window.
That 100 percent limit which paved the way for this toothless regulation
didn't even get into European law at all. All we have is a rule that
the motor may not deliver power when the person sitting on the bike
stops pedaling for a while. Who hasn't yet seen some "food delivery
hero" on an electric bike riding their bike uphill by just turning the
crank half a turn forward and than backwards?
A Bosch motor easily delivers 600 Watt, it assists with up to 340% in
addition to the power the rider supplies, when using one of the old
"modes", or an unspecified amount plus some likewise unspecified
additional boost, when using one of the newer "intelligent" modes. And
that's just what the adds say, currently. It might even become 900 Watt
and 400%, next year, without breaking the rules.
What gives? Modern low powered electic mopeds could have become a nice
addition to range of motorized vehicles at the lower end, without this
coup of staging such a vehicle as a bicycle by combining the
disadvantages of an e-moped with the disadvantages of a bicycle. A
missed opportunity, with the result that many people are now forgoing
the benefits of real cycling and living unhealthier and more dangerous
lives by pseudo-cycling, instead.
My wife is a great example. Her favorite bike is a Jamis Dakar MTB 3x9
Deore. Even on the moderate hills around here on the road (with
semi-slicks) hills are very challenging. Sure, she's in the granny doing >>> 6 mph on a 3% grade, but it's still a lot of work for a casual cyclist.
For comparison:
I'm 71 years old now, my wife is not much younger. I've never been into
sports, neither is she. She could walk to work, I commuted by bike for
decades, had to give up cycling completely for quite some time after an
accident, but managed to gain some strength back, after retirement. Took
a while.
I did that by starting moderately in 2018, slowly expanding my range,
from initially less than 30 km and 200 meters of altitude gain, avoiding
steep ascends, to 140 km and almost 2000 meteres of altitude gain, in
spring this year.
About halve of those rides that go from the flat rhine valley into the
nearby hilly countryside, my wife and I did together. These where short
rides initially, from some 20-30 km and 200-300 m in altitude gain to
about 60 km and 600 m.
In the past, she had strictly refused to ride climbs that were steeper
than around six percent. "I just cannot do that", she said.
Of course, she couldn't, for the following reasons.
For context, we were using road bicycles that whe bought in early 2010,
for using them for vacations in the south of France, both equipped with
3x10 gears, drop bars, 25 mm slicks. After changing cassettes to the
lowest possible gear ratio, whe had 30 front, 30 rear on my bike, 30
front, 28 rear on her bike, good enough for both of us doing some longer
6-6 percent streches uphill and some short 7 percent ascents, but no
more.
Problems when riding uphill
* Riding up steeper hills using a 1:1 ratio or worse with a very low
cadence does reduce the necessary power (watts), but doesn't reduce the
necessary torque/force. Men have better prerequisites here.
* Riding uphill with a low power budget needs riding slowly, the
necessary riding technique has to be learned
* Stopping for that reason isn't easy to handle
* Riding slowly needs a good fitting bike
* A difficult to operate gearshift doesn't help concentrating on
pedaling and steering
In essence, while our old bikes where still more than good enough for
getting around quite a bit on flat and moderately steep ground and
getting better by just doing it often enough, there was a kind of
chicken and egg problem here, for riding uphill. You have to learn and
master riding up steep hills by just doing it. But how do you do that,
when you can't even start or ride that slowly, without tipping over,
because the cadence is far to low, initially?
After some research and a long trip through local bike shops, my
solution was to start the project with a professional bikefitting with
our old bikes, in order to get key values for new bikes. And then I
built two customized bikes myself, early last year. Problem solved.
She even rode up a long ascent, 9 percent average, including some short
10 and 12 percent parts, half a year later. Twice! "Let's look wether I
can do it again", she said.
These bikes weren't cheap, but E-bikes aren't that cheap, either, if you
don't buy complete thrash. It's just the question how in what to
invest, into an e-bike for getting instant gratification, or into a
better bike plus some time, for getting a delayed gratification,
combining two benefits, independence from a motor, and better health.
Last year in Ireland we rented bikes. She got an E-bike (on my
insistence) and I got a regular bike (same basic bike, but with no
motor). She flew up hills much longer and steeper than anything around
here with little effort, leaving me behind gasping for air.
Sure. An E-bike gives her something she doesn't get from a real
bicycle, instant gratification, without effort. This comes with a
price, though.
No comment.
Try telling her she'd do just as well with an "appropriately" geared
bike, and you'll get her classic 'you really can't be that clueless' glare. >>
+1
That, sir, is an excellent post.
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an
e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put
them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
That makes no sense. Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
A bicycle is driven by the person sitting on it, that determines how it
is ridden. For a great part, this depends on how much power that person
can deliver and for how long, both short term, for looking at a single
ride, and in the long run.
This isn't a static relation. Quite the opposite, how hard you exercise
your muscles while cycling and how long you train your cardiac system influences how much you gain - or lose - in strength and endurance. A motorized bicycle, on the other hand, makes most of this unnecessary, as
it reduces these constraints and incentives to almost nothing. All that remains is the illusion of riding a bike.
A little bit of history and context, plus some technical details.
with the result that many people are now forgoing
the benefits of real cycling and living unhealthier and more dangerous
lives by pseudo-cycling, instead.
My wife is a great example. Her favorite bike is a Jamis Dakar MTB 3x9
Deore. Even on the moderate hills around here on the road (with
semi-slicks) hills are very challenging. Sure, she's in the granny doing
6 mph on a 3% grade, but it's still a lot of work for a casual cyclist.
For comparison:
I'm 71 years old now, my wife is not much younger. I've never been into sports, neither is she. She could walk to work, I commuted by bike for decades, had to give up cycling completely for quite some time after an accident, but managed to gain some strength back, after retirement. Took
a while.
Last year in Ireland we rented bikes. She got an E-bike (on my
insistence) and I got a regular bike (same basic bike, but with no
motor). She flew up hills much longer and steeper than anything around
here with little effort, leaving me behind gasping for air.
Sure. An E-bike gives her something she doesn't get from a real
bicycle, instant gratification, without effort. This comes with a
price, though.
Try telling her she'd do just as well with an "appropriately" geared
bike, and you'll get her classic 'you really can't be that clueless' glare.
No comment.
On 9/27/2024 9:16 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2024 7:18 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:51:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how >>>>>> some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds >>>>>> like bicycles.
[...]
The E Bike means he’s not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less the
endurance as he’s still fit by anyone’s standards but he doesn’t end up
going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the
speed
I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type >>>> stuff wasn’t why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles >>>> across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so we’re able to do similar >>>> terrain and distance, it’s only when stuff is non technical and I’m >>>> on the
MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me
up a
horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section
holding
28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
That's essentially the definition of a motorized vehicle: it closes the
gap between someone who has gained the ability to ride fast and wide, by >>> using a bicycle with some intensity for long enough, and somebody who
hasn't, for whatever reason (most simply by choice). A weak person can >>> ride as fast as somebody who trained his or her body for most of his or
her life, simply by using a car or a motorcycle. Even more, a weak
person in a better car or on a heavier powered motorcycle can easily
outrun a strong person in a weaker automobile.
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to
just
ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even
false
flats.
It’s not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
I didn't write that an E-Bike gives anybody the performance of a TdF
professional. Far from it. The E-Biker usually doesn't have any of the
motor skills acquired during through long, intensive use of a real
bicycle.
What I wrote was that the motor of an E-Bike is able to supply about as
much additional power to a weak cyclist as a professional racer on a
bicycle usually needs, sometimes even more. And certainly more
endurance.
That is an important point. In large US cities there are fleets of
electric rentals. They are commonly used by visitors who don't know the
street patterns or traffic patterns and are not generally cyclists, so
they do not habitually watch ahead through the windows of the car in
front, don't observe pedestrians ahead, don't have cycling skills and so
on. Add in riding on sidewalks, sometims into pedestrians, and it's a
real problem.
First fatality was a right hook:
https://abc7chicago.com/bicylist-virginia-murray-bicyclist-hit-by-truck-
divvy-bike/1409797/
Reporter's final statement: "At this particular intersection, there is
no bike lane." But a bike lane does _not_ help that problem, and may >exacerbate it! Whether a simple paint stripe, or green pavement, or even
a barrier "protection," a cyclist should never be on the right, riding
past a vehicle that can be turning right. Especially a large vehicle
like a truck or bus, with their huge blind spots.
and escalated from there:
https://www.axios.com/local/chicago/2023/05/19/chicago-bike-lanes-
fatalities
In the "low stress" facilities they describe, the "stress" is the
_feeling_ of danger. It's been clearly shown that people routinely
"feel" safer in bike lanes (and are probably less alert as a result)
even when crash data proves that they are actually at more danger than >without bike lanes.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
The E Bike means he’s not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less the >endurance as he’s still fit by anyone’s standards but he doesn’t end up >going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the speed
I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type
stuff wasn’t why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles >across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so we’re able to do similar >terrain and distance, it’s only when stuff is non technical and I’m on the >MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me up a >horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section holding >28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to just >ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even false >flats.
It’s not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
On 9/26/2024 10:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an >>> e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put
them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
That makes no sense. Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
Of course it makes sense, You missed my point which was in response to
SMS stating "The entire eBike industry would collapse if people found
out that with proper gearing there is usually no need for an electric
motor and batteries." (maybe because you snipped it?)
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a
bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
Your opinion is duly noted as just that - your opinion.
A bicycle is driven by the person sitting on it, that determines how it
is ridden. For a great part, this depends on how much power that person
can deliver and for how long, both short term, for looking at a single
ride, and in the long run.
This isn't a static relation. Quite the opposite, how hard you exercise
your muscles while cycling and how long you train your cardiac system
influences how much you gain - or lose - in strength and endurance. A
motorized bicycle, on the other hand, makes most of this unnecessary, as
it reduces these constraints and incentives to almost nothing. All that
remains is the illusion of riding a bike.
Youir opinion is duly noted as your opinion
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:51:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
[...]
The E Bike means he’s not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less the
endurance as he’s still fit by anyone’s standards but he doesn’t end up
going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the speed >> I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type
stuff wasn’t why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles
across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so we’re able to do similar
terrain and distance, it’s only when stuff is non technical and I’m on the
MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me up a
horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section holding >> 28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
That's essentially the definition of a motorized vehicle: it closes the
gap between someone who has gained the ability to ride fast and wide, by using a bicycle with some intensity for long enough, and somebody who
hasn't, for whatever reason (most simply by choice). A weak person can
ride as fast as somebody who trained his or her body for most of his or
her life, simply by using a car or a motorcycle. Even more, a weak
person in a better car or on a heavier powered motorcycle can easily
outrun a strong person in a weaker automobile.
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to just
ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even false
flats.
It’s not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
I didn't write that an E-Bike gives anybody the performance of a TdF professional. Far from it. The E-Biker usually doesn't have any of the
motor skills acquired during through long, intensive use of a real
bicycle.
What I wrote was that the motor of an E-Bike is able to supply about as
much additional power to a weak cyclist as a professional racer on a
bicycle usually needs, sometimes even more. And certainly more
endurance.
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:32:51 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/26/2024 10:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
On 9/23/2024 8:47 PM, sms wrote:...
On 9/23/2024 8:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
<snip>
Sorry, not buyin' it. Not to mention the fact that taking someone off an >>>> e-bike and telling them they have to pedal is one way to completely put >>>> them off cycling, regardless of the proper gearing.
That makes no sense. Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
Of course it makes sense, You missed my point which was in response to
SMS stating "The entire eBike industry would collapse if people found
out that with proper gearing there is usually no need for an electric
motor and batteries." (maybe because you snipped it?)
I snipped it because I wasn't commenting on that, but commenting on your statement quoted above.
[...]
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling.
First of all, that's not a rule, it is a fact. Somebody riding a
motorized bike isn't using an bicycle.
I outlined some of the
consequences. Of course gaining competence, specific capabilities and strength by riding a bicycle takes time, and while loosing that strength
and capabilites takes time too, losing strength goes a lot faster than gaining it. As a rule, if somebody switches to an e-bike, he or she
becomes dependent on it in the long term; if they even started cycling,
as becomes the case with children in this country, they start to become addicted straight away.
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a
bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
Your opinion is duly noted as just that - your opinion.
It isn't just an opinion. I'm describing a development, a mechanism, and their consequences, which are quite visible, when you look around. You
are just stating an opinion.
A bicycle is driven by the person sitting on it, that determines how it
is ridden. For a great part, this depends on how much power that person
can deliver and for how long, both short term, for looking at a single
ride, and in the long run.
This isn't a static relation. Quite the opposite, how hard you exercise
your muscles while cycling and how long you train your cardiac system
influences how much you gain - or lose - in strength and endurance. A
motorized bicycle, on the other hand, makes most of this unnecessary, as >>> it reduces these constraints and incentives to almost nothing. All that >>> remains is the illusion of riding a bike.
Youir opinion is duly noted as your opinion
That is getting lame.
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:51:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
[...]
The E Bike means he’s not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less the
endurance as he’s still fit by anyone’s standards but he doesn’t end up
going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the speed >> I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type
stuff wasn’t why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles
across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so we’re able to do similar
terrain and distance, it’s only when stuff is non technical and I’m on the
MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me up a
horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section holding >> 28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
That's essentially the definition of a motorized vehicle: it closes the
gap between someone who has gained the ability to ride fast and wide, by using a bicycle with some intensity for long enough, and somebody who
hasn't, for whatever reason (most simply by choice). A weak person can
ride as fast as somebody who trained his or her body for most of his or
her life, simply by using a car or a motorcycle. Even more, a weak
person in a better car or on a heavier powered motorcycle can easily
outrun a strong person in a weaker automobile.
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to just
ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even false
flats.
It’s not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
I didn't write that an E-Bike gives anybody the performance of a TdF professional. Far from it. The E-Biker usually doesn't have any of the
motor skills acquired during through long, intensive use of a real
bicycle.
What I wrote was that the motor of an E-Bike is able to supply about as
much additional power to a weak cyclist as a professional racer on a
bicycle usually needs, sometimes even more. And certainly more
endurance.
On 9/26/2024 10:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Tue, 24 Sep 2024 08:23:03 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
I'd suggest you go
out on an E-bike for an hour and ride some hills. You'll get a good
sense of why "with proper gearing there is usually no need for an
electric motor" is a rather myopic comment.
This statement alone proves that e-bikes are not bicycles. A bicycle
that gives a weak rider the power of a Tour de France athlete is not a
bicycle, but a motorcycle. It does not have the essential
characteristics that distinguish a bicycle from a motorcycle.
I agree that classifying ebikes as "bicycles" is a sham. It was a
deliberate move by the industry to make sure that these low power
motorcycles would benefit from the laws applied to bicycles, and to make
sure that the public would buy them and not be scared away by the idea
that they are motorcycles.
But I don't believe that anyone can train so they have no need for a
motor. It depends.
On today's club ride, one of my good friends was at the rear, as always.
One somewhat ignorant newcomer to the club has offended her by
"mansplaining" advice on how to climb hills at higher speed. He didn't >realize his four years of riding experience are nothing next to her 40+ >years, plus her touring Montana, the Skyline Drive, etc. etc. etc. Fact
is, she has a cardiac problem that will always limit her power. BUT she
has no interest in an ebike.
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat overweight, but
wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his ebike was
recently out of commission, he was desperately tired trying to keep up
on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor and battery
allow him to socialize with his friends.
OTOH, today a guy much younger than me showed up for the first time with
an ebike. I rode with him decades ago, when he was quite strong. He's
not plump and could probably train himself into decent shape if he
tried. When I asked about the bike, he said "But it still gives me a
good workout." I thought "No, not as good. And you're just pretending to
be riding a real bicycle." Long term, he'd do himself more good by
shutting the motor off.
On 9/27/2024 9:20 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 9/27/2024 8:56 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:32:51 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling.
First of all, that's not a rule, it is a fact. Somebody riding a
motorized bike isn't using an bicycle.
If and only if it's an objective fact that an ebike is not a bicycle.
Considering the fact that the fast majority of people who ride non-
motorized bicycles as well as the industry disagree with you, the
statement "Somebody riding a motorized bike isn't using an bicycle" is
not an objective fact, it's a subjective judgement.
Hmm. In an attempt to back away for a broader view:
I can conceive of a bike with a motor so weak and limited that nobody
would object to calling it a bicycle. Maybe a motor with just 15 Watts, driven by a battery with one mile range?
From there, I can conceive of a continuous spectrum, up to that Hi
Power Cycles Revolution X9, 104 km/h speed, 160 km range.
At some point in that spectrum, a rational person would say "That's not
a bicycle, it's a motorcycle." Even though, like the Revolution X9, it
has pedals.
The question is, where is that "not really a bicycle" threshold. I tend
to say America's Class I ebikes are above that threshold. I understand
that they're valuable to many people, but my gut says "You're not really bicycling."
Also, U.S. laws (after heavy industry lobbying) allow 750 Watts and
power assist up to 19 mph, which is way too much in my view. British
laws allow 250 Watts and assist up to 15.5 mph (25 kph). I'd have
stopped the power assist at 12 mph, a level where novices have a much
better chance of staying out of trouble or causing trouble for others.
YMMV, of course.
On 9/27/2024 9:20 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 9/27/2024 8:56 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:32:51 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling.
First of all, that's not a rule, it is a fact. Somebody riding a
motorized bike isn't using an bicycle.
If and only if it's an objective fact that an ebike is not a bicycle.
Considering the fact that the fast majority of people who ride non-
motorized bicycles as well as the industry disagree with you, the
statement "Somebody riding a motorized bike isn't using an bicycle" is
not an objective fact, it's a subjective judgement.
Hmm. In an attempt to back away for a broader view:
I can conceive of a bike with a motor so weak and limited that nobody
would object to calling it a bicycle. Maybe a motor with just 15 Watts, driven by a battery with one mile range?
From there, I can conceive of a continuous spectrum, up to that Hi
Power Cycles Revolution X9, 104 km/h speed, 160 km range.
At some point in that spectrum, a rational person would say "That's not
a bicycle, it's a motorcycle." Even though, like the Revolution X9, it
has pedals.
The question is, where is that "not really a bicycle" threshold. I tend
to say America's Class I ebikes are above that threshold. I understand
that they're valuable to many people, but my gut says "You're not really bicycling."
Also, U.S. laws (after heavy industry lobbying) allow 750 Watts and
power assist up to 19 mph, which is way too much in my view. British
laws allow 250 Watts and assist up to 15.5 mph (25 kph). I'd have
stopped the power assist at 12 mph, a level where novices have a much
better chance of staying out of trouble or causing trouble for others.
YMMV, of course.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 9/27/2024 9:20 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:That is absolutely regulation I’d personally only consider American type 1 as bikes, beyond that starting to become more moped like, see also
On 9/27/2024 8:56 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:32:51 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling. >>>>First of all, that's not a rule, it is a fact. Somebody riding a
motorized bike isn't using an bicycle.
If and only if it's an objective fact that an ebike is not a bicycle.
Considering the fact that the fast majority of people who ride non-
motorized bicycles as well as the industry disagree with you, the
statement "Somebody riding a motorized bike isn't using an bicycle" is
not an objective fact, it's a subjective judgement.
Hmm. In an attempt to back away for a broader view:
I can conceive of a bike with a motor so weak and limited that nobody
would object to calling it a bicycle. Maybe a motor with just 15 Watts,
driven by a battery with one mile range?
From there, I can conceive of a continuous spectrum, up to that Hi
Power Cycles Revolution X9, 104 km/h speed, 160 km range.
At some point in that spectrum, a rational person would say "That's not
a bicycle, it's a motorcycle." Even though, like the Revolution X9, it
has pedals.
The question is, where is that "not really a bicycle" threshold. I tend
to say America's Class I ebikes are above that threshold. I understand
that they're valuable to many people, but my gut says "You're not really
bicycling."
Also, U.S. laws (after heavy industry lobbying) allow 750 Watts and
power assist up to 19 mph, which is way too much in my view. British
laws allow 250 Watts and assist up to 15.5 mph (25 kph). I'd have
stopped the power assist at 12 mph, a level where novices have a much
better chance of staying out of trouble or causing trouble for others.
YMMV, of course.
apparently German cycle lane legislation ie that one has to use one.
That really isn’t technology or even infrastructure but pure politics, last government probably under pressure from folks who wanted more of the small
e vans that are classed as Bikes to increase power etc, has as expected
died was unlikely to go anywhere really.
Roger Merriman
On 9/27/2024 12:23 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 9/27/2024 9:20 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:That is absolutely regulation I’d personally only consider American type 1 >> as bikes, beyond that starting to become more moped like, see also
On 9/27/2024 8:56 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:32:51 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling. >>>>>First of all, that's not a rule, it is a fact. Somebody riding a
motorized bike isn't using an bicycle.
If and only if it's an objective fact that an ebike is not a bicycle.
Considering the fact that the fast majority of people who ride non-
motorized bicycles as well as the industry disagree with you, the
statement "Somebody riding a motorized bike isn't using an bicycle" is >>>> not an objective fact, it's a subjective judgement.
Hmm. In an attempt to back away for a broader view:
I can conceive of a bike with a motor so weak and limited that nobody
would object to calling it a bicycle. Maybe a motor with just 15 Watts,
driven by a battery with one mile range?
From there, I can conceive of a continuous spectrum, up to that Hi
Power Cycles Revolution X9, 104 km/h speed, 160 km range.
At some point in that spectrum, a rational person would say "That's not
a bicycle, it's a motorcycle." Even though, like the Revolution X9, it
has pedals.
The question is, where is that "not really a bicycle" threshold. I tend
to say America's Class I ebikes are above that threshold. I understand
that they're valuable to many people, but my gut says "You're not really >>> bicycling."
Also, U.S. laws (after heavy industry lobbying) allow 750 Watts and
power assist up to 19 mph, which is way too much in my view. British
laws allow 250 Watts and assist up to 15.5 mph (25 kph). I'd have
stopped the power assist at 12 mph, a level where novices have a much
better chance of staying out of trouble or causing trouble for others.
YMMV, of course.
apparently German cycle lane legislation ie that one has to use one.
That really isn’t technology or even infrastructure but pure politics, last
government probably under pressure from folks who wanted more of the small >> e vans that are classed as Bikes to increase power etc, has as expected
died was unlikely to go anywhere really.
Roger Merriman
I noticed that about UK. If this is a bicycle:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/uk-cargo-e-bike-manufacturer-eav-partners-up-with-halfords-to-ensure-efficient-maintenance-207347.html
then I am the Queen of England.
On 9/27/2024 11:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2024 9:20 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 9/27/2024 8:56 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:32:51 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
I also disagree that e-bike users as a rule have given up on cycling. >>>>First of all, that's not a rule, it is a fact. Somebody riding a
motorized bike isn't using an bicycle.
If and only if it's an objective fact that an ebike is not a bicycle.
Considering the fact that the fast majority of people who ride non-
motorized bicycles as well as the industry disagree with you, the
statement "Somebody riding a motorized bike isn't using an bicycle" is
not an objective fact, it's a subjective judgement.
Hmm. In an attempt to back away for a broader view:
I can conceive of a bike with a motor so weak and limited that nobody
would object to calling it a bicycle. Maybe a motor with just 15 Watts,
driven by a battery with one mile range?
From there, I can conceive of a continuous spectrum, up to that Hi
Power Cycles Revolution X9, 104 km/h speed, 160 km range.
At some point in that spectrum, a rational person would say "That's not
a bicycle, it's a motorcycle." Even though, like the Revolution X9, it
has pedals.
The question is, where is that "not really a bicycle" threshold. I tend
to say America's Class I ebikes are above that threshold. I understand
that they're valuable to many people, but my gut says "You're not really
bicycling."
Also, U.S. laws (after heavy industry lobbying) allow 750 Watts and
power assist up to 19 mph, which is way too much in my view. British
laws allow 250 Watts and assist up to 15.5 mph (25 kph). I'd have
stopped the power assist at 12 mph, a level where novices have a much
better chance of staying out of trouble or causing trouble for others.
YMMV, of course.
To be clear, I consider the big bulky ebike designs to fall under Mr. Strobl's definition. IMHO, this is not a bicycle:
https://www.aventon.com/products/aventure2-ebike?variant=42255489466563
This however, is a bicycle:
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/electric-bikes/electric-road-bikes/domane-al-5/p/36145/?colorCode=black
I agree that 20 MPH is above what the assist should provide though.
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:51:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how
some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds
like bicycles.
[...]
The E Bike means he’s not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less the >>endurance as he’s still fit by anyone’s standards but he doesn’t end up >>going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the speed >>I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type >>stuff wasn’t why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles >>across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so we’re able to do similar >>terrain and distance, it’s only when stuff is non technical and I’m on the
MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me up a >>horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section holding >>28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
That's essentially the definition of a motorized vehicle: it closes the
gap between someone who has gained the ability to ride fast and wide, by using a bicycle with some intensity for long enough, and somebody who
hasn't, for whatever reason (most simply by choice). A weak person can
ride as fast as somebody who trained his or her body for most of his or
her life, simply by using a car or a motorcycle. Even more, a weak
person in a better car or on a heavier powered motorcycle can easily
outrun a strong person in a weaker automobile.
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to just >>ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even false >>flats.
It’s not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
I didn't write that an E-Bike gives anybody the performance of a TdF professional. Far from it. The E-Biker usually doesn't have any of the
motor skills acquired during through long, intensive use of a real
bicycle.
What I wrote was that the motor of an E-Bike is able to supply about as
much additional power to a weak cyclist as a professional racer on a
bicycle usually needs, sometimes even more. And certainly more
endurance.
On 9/27/2024 7:18 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:51:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:[...]
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how >>>>> some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds >>>>> like bicycles.
The E Bike means he’s not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less theThat's essentially the definition of a motorized vehicle: it closes
endurance as he’s still fit by anyone’s standards but he doesn’t end up
going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the speed >>> I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type
stuff wasn’t why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles
across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so we’re able to do similar >>> terrain and distance, it’s only when stuff is non technical and I’m on the
MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me up a >>> horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section holding >>> 28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
the
gap between someone who has gained the ability to ride fast and wide, by
using a bicycle with some intensity for long enough, and somebody who
hasn't, for whatever reason (most simply by choice). A weak person can
ride as fast as somebody who trained his or her body for most of his or
her life, simply by using a car or a motorcycle. Even more, a weak
person in a better car or on a heavier powered motorcycle can easily
outrun a strong person in a weaker automobile.
I didn't write that an E-Bike gives anybody the performance of a TdF
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to just >>> ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even false >>> flats.
It’s not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
professional. Far from it. The E-Biker usually doesn't have any of the
motor skills acquired during through long, intensive use of a real
bicycle.
What I wrote was that the motor of an E-Bike is able to supply about
as
much additional power to a weak cyclist as a professional racer on a
bicycle usually needs, sometimes even more. And certainly more
endurance.
That is an important point. In large US cities there are fleets of
electric rentals. They are commonly used by visitors who don't know
the street patterns or traffic patterns and are not generally
cyclists, so they do not habitually watch ahead through the windows of
the car in front, don't observe pedestrians ahead, don't have cycling
skills and so on. Add in riding on sidewalks, sometims into
pedestrians, and it's a real problem.
First fatality was a right hook: https://abc7chicago.com/bicylist-virginia-murray-bicyclist-hit-by-truck-divvy-bike/1409797/
and escalated from there: https://www.axios.com/local/chicago/2023/05/19/chicago-bike-lanes-fatalities
On 9/27/2024 12:22 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:54:27 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat
overweight, but
wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his
ebike was
recently out of commission, he was desperately tired
trying to keep up
on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor
and battery
allow him to socialize with his friends.
Perhaps. But perhaps he got overweight and stayed
overweight, because
he was given a tool that enabled and rewarded this very
behaviour.
Including a narrative suitable as justification. A fancy,
lightweight
conventional bike might have been the the road not taken,
twenty years
ago, figuratively speaking.
Not true in his case. He and his (younger) wife moved here
and joined our club maybe 10 years ago. Then, he rode a
conventional bike, and they did lots and lots of mileage on
club rides. He had a belly then, and it's never gone away.
His wife recently did some senior races. His first ebike
(maybe 4 years ago?) may have been motivated by a desire to
ride at her speed - well, and the speed of other club members.
It is worse now. Nowadays, as both older and somewhatThat's horrifying to me.
disabled people
have long been captured by the marketing teams and many
healthy middle
aged people have already bought an E-Bike too, children
have been in
focus an the target for marketing for a few years now.
Have a look at
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/vp/ebike/vsf_e-
bikes_fuer_kinder.JPG>
That picture shows the cover of a magazine from VSF
("Verbund Service
und Fahrrad", formerly and translated "association of
self-managed
bicycle companies", a nation wide marketing and lobby
organization in
Germany)
The title on the cover, in bold letters, says "E-bikes for
children".
Last year, my friends and I were enjoying playing in an
acoustic music session at a park pavilion. For a while we
watched three or four kids zooming back and forth on an
adjacent (very low traffic) road. They were being goofy
kids, but at 20 mph at least, so crashes could have real
consequences. I think their parents are nuts.
I occasionally see kids zooming around on electric scooters.
Apparently it's no longer fashionable to use one's muscles.
This is not a good trend.
On 9/27/2024 3:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
I feel obligated to note to parents that an 8 or 9 year
old probably doesn't have the reflexes, reaction time or
judgement for an electric vehicle. Goes in one ear and out
the other, unimpeded by comprehension.
and not only two wheelers, whether on public roads:
https://apnews.com/article/atv-car-crash-two-girls-
killed-1c1d62a1a49366fe6e4f90b537ee6b35
or not:
https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/13-year-old-
shawano- county-girl-dies-after-atv-crash-on-private-
property/
I really wonder about the parent's lack of common sense,
permitting kids to use such toys. Do they watch too many
video games, where onscreen avatars constantly escape
unharmed from impossibly dangerous adventures?
On 9/27/2024 12:22 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:54:27 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat overweight,
but wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his ebike was
recently out of commission, he was desperately tired trying to keep up
on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor and battery
allow him to socialize with his friends.
Perhaps. But perhaps he got overweight and stayed overweight, because
he was given a tool that enabled and rewarded this very behaviour.
Including a narrative suitable as justification. A fancy, lightweight
conventional bike might have been the the road not taken, twenty years
ago, figuratively speaking.
Not true in his case. He and his (younger) wife moved here and joined
our club maybe 10 years ago. Then, he rode a conventional bike, and they
did lots and lots of mileage on club rides. He had a belly then, and
it's never gone away. His wife recently did some senior races. His first ebike (maybe 4 years ago?) may have been motivated by a desire to ride
at her speed - well, and the speed of other club members.
It is worse now. Nowadays, as both older and somewhat disabled peopleThat's horrifying to me.
have long been captured by the marketing teams and many healthy middle
aged people have already bought an E-Bike too, children have been in
focus an the target for marketing for a few years now. Have a look at
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/vp/ebike/vsf_e-bikes_fuer_kinder.JPG>
That picture shows the cover of a magazine from VSF ("Verbund Service
und Fahrrad", formerly and translated "association of self-managed
bicycle companies", a nation wide marketing and lobby organization in
Germany)
The title on the cover, in bold letters, says "E-bikes for children".
Last year, my friends and I were enjoying playing in an acoustic music session at a park pavilion. For a while we watched three or four kids
zooming back and forth on an adjacent (very low traffic) road. They were being goofy kids, but at 20 mph at least, so crashes could have real consequences. I think their parents are nuts.
I occasionally see kids zooming around on electric scooters. Apparently
it's no longer fashionable to use one's muscles. This is not a good
trend.
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 16:17:19 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:51:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 9/26/2024 9:27 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
[...] Someone who has switched from a bicycle to an
E-bike has already essentially given up on cycling, regardless of how >>>>>> some clueless politicians twist the laws to treat low-powered mopeds >>>>>> like bicycles.
[...]
The E Bike means hes not so beat up on bigger MTB rides, less the
endurance as hes still fit by anyones standards but he doesnt end up >>>> going into the red multiple times trying to keep up with me, less the speed
I ride more the terrain, ie riding along the canal or old railways type >>>> stuff wasnt why he got a E bike but so he could still do 20/30 miles >>>> across and up/down the mountains.
In practice its essentially closed the gap so were able to do similar >>>> terrain and distance, its only when stuff is non technical and Im on the
MTB that he has to slow down and wait for me, such as coming with me up a >>>> horrible road climb I wanted to do! That had a significant section holding >>>> 28% that was definitely type 2 fun! And yes he had to wait for me!
That's essentially the definition of a motorized vehicle: it closes the
gap between someone who has gained the ability to ride fast and wide, by >>> using a bicycle with some intensity for long enough, and somebody who
hasn't, for whatever reason (most simply by choice). A weak person can >>> ride as fast as somebody who trained his or her body for most of his or
her life, simply by using a car or a motorcycle. Even more, a weak
person in a better car or on a heavier powered motorcycle can easily
outrun a strong person in a weaker automobile.
But even then on the old tramline after on the Gravel bike I have to just >>>> ease off as I can ride higher than the limiter on the flats or even false >>>> flats.
Its not giving him Pro level of performance not by a long shot!
I didn't write that an E-Bike gives anybody the performance of a TdF
professional. Far from it. The E-Biker usually doesn't have any of the
motor skills acquired during through long, intensive use of a real
bicycle.
Maybe some commuters but that really isnt true certainly in uk plenty of >> hire E bikes and few commuters and quite a few E MTB, who in particular
definitely will have the motor skills.
E bikes are an expensive investment so generally folks will not have just
walked into a shop and bought a 3k E MTB or 5/7K cargo bike and so on.
In my experience the gap isnt huge at least for MTBing more so on smoother >> terrain and so on, and places with 20/25mph limits.
What I wrote was that the motor of an E-Bike is able to supply about as
much additional power to a weak cyclist as a professional racer on a
bicycle usually needs, sometimes even more. And certainly more
endurance.
Im not that fit but Im okay riding with mates who are touch less fit on >> E-MTBs and while yes E bikes are supposed to kick out 600ish watts at
peak, in reality i pull away from the lime etc hire bikes in the race away >> from lights and so on.
A pro rider is producing more certainly peak than a few hundreds even non
sprinters seem to be in the 1000+ range as can some amateur riders.
There absolutely are some E bikes that are a moped or motorcycle but its >> not binary. Plenty are bikes just give the rider a touch more oomph!
Roger Merriman
But where or how does one draw the line. I posted a reference to a 104
KPH electric bike yesterday that would certainly do all you want it to
do and much faster then you can with your 2 foot power bike.
It's got two wheels, it's got an electric motor... must be an "e
bike".
On 9/27/2024 12:22 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:54:27 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat overweight, but
wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his ebike was
recently out of commission, he was desperately tired trying to keep up
on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor and battery
allow him to socialize with his friends.
Perhaps. But perhaps he got overweight and stayed overweight, because
he was given a tool that enabled and rewarded this very behaviour.
Including a narrative suitable as justification. A fancy, lightweight
conventional bike might have been the the road not taken, twenty years
ago, figuratively speaking.
Not true in his case. He and his (younger) wife moved here and joined
our club maybe 10 years ago. Then, he rode a conventional bike, and they
did lots and lots of mileage on club rides. He had a belly then, and
it's never gone away.
His wife recently did some senior races. His first
ebike (maybe 4 years ago?) may have been motivated by a desire to ride
at her speed - well, and the speed of other club members.
It is worse now. Nowadays, as both older and somewhat disabled people
have long been captured by the marketing teams and many healthy middle
aged people have already bought an E-Bike too, children have been in
focus an the target for marketing for a few years now. Have a look at
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/vp/ebike/vsf_e-bikes_fuer_kinder.JPG>
That picture shows the cover of a magazine from VSF ("Verbund Service
und Fahrrad", formerly and translated "association of self-managed
bicycle companies", a nation wide marketing and lobby organization in
Germany)
The title on the cover, in bold letters, says "E-bikes for children".
That's horrifying to me.
Last year, my friends and I were enjoying playing in an acoustic music >session at a park pavilion. For a while we watched three or four kids
zooming back and forth on an adjacent (very low traffic) road. They were >being goofy kids, but at 20 mph at least, so crashes could have real >consequences. I think their parents are nuts.
I occasionally see kids zooming around on electric scooters. Apparently
it's no longer fashionable to use one's muscles. This is not a good trend.
On 10/7/2024 10:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 27 Sep 2024 15:17:55 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 9/27/2024 12:22 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:54:27 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat overweight, but >>>>> wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his ebike was
recently out of commission, he was desperately tired trying to keep up >>>>> on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor and battery >>>>> allow him to socialize with his friends.
Perhaps. But perhaps he got overweight and stayed overweight, because >>>> he was given a tool that enabled and rewarded this very behaviour.
Including a narrative suitable as justification. A fancy, lightweight
conventional bike might have been the the road not taken, twenty years >>>> ago, figuratively speaking.
Not true in his case. He and his (younger) wife moved here and joined
our club maybe 10 years ago. Then, he rode a conventional bike, and they >>> did lots and lots of mileage on club rides. He had a belly then, and
it's never gone away.
That is not very convincing. Being overweight and especially having a
belly is rarely a disease or an insurmountable predisposition. Usually,
it is the combination of to much calories in and too few calories out,
as a matter of livestyle.
His wife recently did some senior races. His first
ebike (maybe 4 years ago?) may have been motivated by a desire to ride
at her speed - well, and the speed of other club members.
...
May I ask what "ride at her speed" and "speed of other club members"
aktually means?
The couple was on today's ride. These are social rides, not fast. I
think our overall average speed was only around 13 miles per hour for
the 36 mile ride. In any case, it's a speed and distance this man
absolutely cannot do without his electric assist. He's using the ebike
to be able to participate in a social event with friends.
I'm not as optimistic as you regarding his ability to lose his prominent belly, nor regarding any reasonable increase in speed he'd reap if he
did. I think the guy is 80 years old. At that age, increases in
conditioning are very, very difficult.
And I think that for almost all people, loss of a significant amount of weight is also very, very difficult. This science program on Nova https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-truth-about-fat/ "The Truth
about Fat" documented how difficult it can be. To an extent, the body's feedback system seems to decrease metabolism when intake is restricted -
sort of like the "D" component in a PID drive control - fighting against
what seems like an obvious outcome.
I watched that show long ago, but IIRC they spotlighted a contest TV
show popular about that time, "The Biggest Loser." Contestants made
extreme lifestyle changes in efforts to lose weight and get in better
shape. Some had great success, but none retained their success. It took
such extreme effort (e.g. hours and hours of exercise, heavy calorie restriction) that it was practically unsustainable.
I do think that exercise is beneficial in many ways. But I won't
begrudge or condemn this particular friend's ebike. I think that without
it, he'd soon give up riding entirely, because he'd be doing it alone
and frustrated.
But again, I tend to think of ebikes as not really bicycles. I do think
most people would be better off riding conventional bikes.
On 10/7/2024 4:22 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/7/2024 10:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:I’ve encountered vanishing few road E bikes, and with the uk system ie it >> stops assistance at 15 or so mph, but I encounter a lots of E bikes as
Am Fri, 27 Sep 2024 15:17:55 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 9/27/2024 12:22 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:54:27 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat overweight, but >>>>>>> wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his ebike was >>>>>>> recently out of commission, he was desperately tired trying to keep up >>>>>>> on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor and battery >>>>>>> allow him to socialize with his friends.
Perhaps. But perhaps he got overweight and stayed overweight, because >>>>>> he was given a tool that enabled and rewarded this very behaviour. >>>>>> Including a narrative suitable as justification. A fancy, lightweight >>>>>> conventional bike might have been the the road not taken, twenty years >>>>>> ago, figuratively speaking.
Not true in his case. He and his (younger) wife moved here and joined >>>>> our club maybe 10 years ago. Then, he rode a conventional bike, and they >>>>> did lots and lots of mileage on club rides. He had a belly then, and >>>>> it's never gone away.
That is not very convincing. Being overweight and especially having a
belly is rarely a disease or an insurmountable predisposition. Usually, >>>> it is the combination of to much calories in and too few calories out, >>>> as a matter of livestyle.
His wife recently did some senior races. His first
ebike (maybe 4 years ago?) may have been motivated by a desire to ride >>>>> at her speed - well, and the speed of other club members.
...
May I ask what "ride at her speed" and "speed of other club members"
aktually means?
The couple was on today's ride. These are social rides, not fast. I
think our overall average speed was only around 13 miles per hour for
the 36 mile ride. In any case, it's a speed and distance this man
absolutely cannot do without his electric assist. He's using the ebike
to be able to participate in a social event with friends.
I'm not as optimistic as you regarding his ability to lose his prominent >>> belly, nor regarding any reasonable increase in speed he'd reap if he
did. I think the guy is 80 years old. At that age, increases in
conditioning are very, very difficult.
And I think that for almost all people, loss of a significant amount of
weight is also very, very difficult. This science program on Nova
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-truth-about-fat/ "The Truth
about Fat" documented how difficult it can be. To an extent, the body's
feedback system seems to decrease metabolism when intake is restricted - >>> sort of like the "D" component in a PID drive control - fighting against >>> what seems like an obvious outcome.
I watched that show long ago, but IIRC they spotlighted a contest TV
show popular about that time, "The Biggest Loser." Contestants made
extreme lifestyle changes in efforts to lose weight and get in better
shape. Some had great success, but none retained their success. It took
such extreme effort (e.g. hours and hours of exercise, heavy calorie
restriction) that it was practically unsustainable.
I do think that exercise is beneficial in many ways. But I won't
begrudge or condemn this particular friend's ebike. I think that without >>> it, he'd soon give up riding entirely, because he'd be doing it alone
and frustrated.
But again, I tend to think of ebikes as not really bicycles. I do think
most people would be better off riding conventional bikes.
commuters/MTB which are much better fit.
Most ebikes I encounter are very obviously ebikes. While I haven't
examined them closely, most of those around here tend to have very wide
tires (over 2" minimum, often over 3"), always have headlights running,
have riders with low saddle heights, and just appear massive.
The last four seen on our club rides were different. At a quick glance,
they looked like normal road bikes. The most recent one to pop up had
its crank motor so well hidden that I had to ask the rider "Is that a
motor or some sort of storage box down there?"
The oldest-looking one had a motor at the crankset, but it was very
obvious - a cylinder maybe 6" diameter and several inches axially,
sticking out in front of the bottom bracket.
BTW, that rider wasn't on today's ride. He's volunteered to go down to Florida with the Red Cross. Nice guy.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/7/2024 4:22 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/7/2024 10:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:Ive encountered vanishing few road E bikes, and with the uk system ie it >>> stops assistance at 15 or so mph, but I encounter a lots of E bikes as
Am Fri, 27 Sep 2024 15:17:55 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 9/27/2024 12:22 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Sep 2024 14:54:27 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
Another guy on the ride is ~80, will always be somewhat overweight, but
wants to ride with the club for social reasons. When his ebike was >>>>>>>> recently out of commission, he was desperately tired trying to keep up >>>>>>>> on a very fancy, lightweight conventional bike. The motor and battery >>>>>>>> allow him to socialize with his friends.
Perhaps. But perhaps he got overweight and stayed overweight, because >>>>>>> he was given a tool that enabled and rewarded this very behaviour. >>>>>>> Including a narrative suitable as justification. A fancy, lightweight >>>>>>> conventional bike might have been the the road not taken, twenty years >>>>>>> ago, figuratively speaking.
Not true in his case. He and his (younger) wife moved here and joined >>>>>> our club maybe 10 years ago. Then, he rode a conventional bike, and they >>>>>> did lots and lots of mileage on club rides. He had a belly then, and >>>>>> it's never gone away.
That is not very convincing. Being overweight and especially having a >>>>> belly is rarely a disease or an insurmountable predisposition. Usually, >>>>> it is the combination of to much calories in and too few calories out, >>>>> as a matter of livestyle.
His wife recently did some senior races. His first
ebike (maybe 4 years ago?) may have been motivated by a desire to ride >>>>>> at her speed - well, and the speed of other club members.
...
May I ask what "ride at her speed" and "speed of other club members" >>>>> aktually means?
The couple was on today's ride. These are social rides, not fast. I
think our overall average speed was only around 13 miles per hour for
the 36 mile ride. In any case, it's a speed and distance this man
absolutely cannot do without his electric assist. He's using the ebike >>>> to be able to participate in a social event with friends.
I'm not as optimistic as you regarding his ability to lose his prominent >>>> belly, nor regarding any reasonable increase in speed he'd reap if he
did. I think the guy is 80 years old. At that age, increases in
conditioning are very, very difficult.
And I think that for almost all people, loss of a significant amount of >>>> weight is also very, very difficult. This science program on Nova
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-truth-about-fat/ "The Truth
about Fat" documented how difficult it can be. To an extent, the body's >>>> feedback system seems to decrease metabolism when intake is restricted - >>>> sort of like the "D" component in a PID drive control - fighting against >>>> what seems like an obvious outcome.
I watched that show long ago, but IIRC they spotlighted a contest TV
show popular about that time, "The Biggest Loser." Contestants made
extreme lifestyle changes in efforts to lose weight and get in better
shape. Some had great success, but none retained their success. It took >>>> such extreme effort (e.g. hours and hours of exercise, heavy calorie
restriction) that it was practically unsustainable.
I do think that exercise is beneficial in many ways. But I won't
begrudge or condemn this particular friend's ebike. I think that without >>>> it, he'd soon give up riding entirely, because he'd be doing it alone
and frustrated.
But again, I tend to think of ebikes as not really bicycles. I do think >>>> most people would be better off riding conventional bikes.
commuters/MTB which are much better fit.
Most ebikes I encounter are very obviously ebikes. While I haven't
examined them closely, most of those around here tend to have very wide
tires (over 2" minimum, often over 3"), always have headlights running,
have riders with low saddle heights, and just appear massive.
Those are mostly just eat and other riders, I food delivery riders on >fairly cheap and probably not legal but loosely based on a MTB
realistically i suspect they would struggle if used as MTB.
The last four seen on our club rides were different. At a quick glance,
they looked like normal road bikes. The most recent one to pop up had
its crank motor so well hidden that I had to ask the rider "Is that a
motor or some sort of storage box down there?"
The oldest-looking one had a motor at the crankset, but it was very
obvious - a cylinder maybe 6" diameter and several inches axially,
sticking out in front of the bottom bracket.
Bottom bracket motors are generally preferred for performance be that >torque/efficiency and ability to respond in a bike like way.
Ie sort of thing youd see on most E MTB or road bikes used by cyclists or >simply beyond the cheaper bikes.
Yup some of my YouTube subscriptions are doing similar be that they live in >the area ish as it looks fairly horrific.
BTW, that rider wasn't on today's ride. He's volunteered to go down to
Florida with the Red Cross. Nice guy.
Roger Merriman
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