Hi there

You are a bunch of bright folk who have got amazingly deeply involved
in a lot of things.

I recently did some FEA (Finite Element Analysis modelling) on a real
physical mechanical test I devised for fillet weld strength

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/210122_fwtest_rig/210122_fwtest_testrig.html
"Tensile-test rig for beam-configuration fillet-weld samples"

Movie of - 10 seconds - shared on "Dropbox" https://www.dropbox.com/s/ua4ke9y4w3bcp6d/210122_fwtr.mp4?dl=0

This was the original FEA I did and that told me an amazing amount;
concurring with what was observed about where the weld breaks / would
be expected to break, etc.

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/210216_bcfwtt_fea3d/210216_bcfwtt_fea3d.html
"FEA3D : BCFWTT RHS beam top surface around test weld"

The I did an "idiot"(ish) thing - thinking of Aluminum, took the same
FEA model and changed just the material properties, so it was as if
made of Aluminum, and ran the model again. http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/220904_bcfwtt_ali_fea3d/220904_bcfwtt_ali_fea3d.html
"FEA3D : Aluminium BCFWTT RHS beam around test weld"
Explanation why that is daft on the page.

However; I could have formulated a much better question.
Given the effect of a change in elastic modulus produces a totally
predictable linear-proportional change in the predicted deflection
under the same load...
So that better question would have been:
taking the original model which I did for steels matching and
modelling the real physical test, what is the effect of varying the
Poisson's Ratio on the outcome?
Because that is the one which is difficult, at least for me, to
imagine.

So I did exactly that, and here it is...

http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/220907_bcfwtt3D_pr_var/220907_bcfwtt_3d_d40x_pr0pn.html
"FEA3D : BCFWTT RHS by weld - variable Poisson's Ratio"

Lots of pictures of the FEA output.

What do we know?
Hope this is an interesting topic...

Regards,
Rich Smith

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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyedwmqd0b.fsf@void.com...

Hi there

You are a bunch of bright folk who have got amazingly deeply involved
in a lot of things.

----------------------

That one is way beyond me. I took introductory courses in Statics and
Materials Science but never got as far as Poisson's Ratio. Then the Army steered me into computer electronics where I stayed.

I was just reading about Prince Charles and his school days and wondered how British higher education compares to American. I've worked with engineers
from all over the world and not seen much difference in their abilities,
except perhaps that Americans tend to be more hands-on and foreigners more theoretical, or perhaps disdainful of manual labor. For example a project manager for a -very- large company, an EE Ph.D. from India, didn't know that resistors have a tolerance, he expected 8 digit accuracy from an analog computing circuit.

In my experience the engineering professors and students mutually respected each other, it was a pleasant environment although the coursework was difficult. The grad students I shared the lab with on summertime government research projects were always very helpful.

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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tfda63$pe5k$1@dont-email.me...

I was just reading about Prince Charles ...

----------------

Correction: King Charles III, vive le roi.

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Your point about "ivory tower" (Europe / other parts of the world) and "practical" (North America) can be seen in Standards.
We have cascades of ISO's - huge paper exercises.
Compare ISO welding standards to AWS D1.1 and to API1104.
Particularly API1104, "cross-country pipelines", to really bring it
into focus.
Another thing is ISO's "waffle away" often without ever mentioning
the point. Whereas North American "Codes" start with stating what
this is all about, everything needing oversight by a knowdgeable
engineer, and any property relied upon not mentioned in the "Code"
needing to be controlled.
The ISO's often invoke huge expense.
Again, compare the ISO's when it comes to pipe-welding to API1104.
The costs of implementing API1104 are a lot less than for an ISO (? -
it looks strongly that way to me).
Yet, clear as daylight, you are going to end up with a good reliable
pipeline if you follow API1104.

That is a perception I have - what is it you need, how could you get
it, and what does it cost?
I had one which would have been hilarious if the fellow hadn't turned
scarlet and the blood-vessels bulged pulsing on his temples.
Medically a bit dangerous, as well as he was a valued colleague.
I did do a wind-up too far...
Thing is, about three days later, they were realising, somewhat
chagrinned, that what they were being pushed towards was exactly what
I was saying at the outset.
Based on that analysis;
what is it that's needed, how could you get it, and what does it cost?
It was just the instinct, because I was the novice and they were the highly-regarded experts.

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyedwmqd0b.fsf@void.com...

Hi there

You are a bunch of bright folk who have got amazingly deeply involved
in a lot of things.

----------------------

That one is way beyond me. ...

It isn't.

What I did made the entirety of the FEA solution become a spring.
Obeying Hooke's Law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law
Hooke's Law is paraphrased by the equation
F=kx

With a FEA model, that "spring" is internally complex - and will
reveal the stresses and the strains across the object modelled. But
that isn't a necessary perception or issue at this juncture. All that
detail available can be a distraction.

That is the point.

A linear-elastic finite element analysis solution is still a "Hookean
spring".

All I'd done is alter "k", the spring-constant.
Making "k" 1/3 of its previous value.
Result - for a given "F", "x" is 3x greater

F=kx <=> x=F/k

By comparing two runs of the same FEA model in the way I did, I found
the one-and-only line-of-sight which reduces this "holy grail" method
to a simple spring.

I should have foreseen that.

It's a well of sense in an abyss of stupidity, if you will.

But have we all been there, perhaps more than once, on our paths?
Do we learn big lessons that way?

I invited a discussion.

There is good reason to accept "driving" a FEA software as like
driving a car. You'll benefit from a vague schematic idea of "what
goes on under the hood". But even that isn't necessary.
The reason is, as an eminent mathematician explained - arriving at the
Finite Element method involved it bouncing back and forth between
engineers and mathematicians, with no one person fully understanding
everything about it at any one time. He said he reckons it's the
largest single joint endeavour in human history.
So - just start it up, press the pedals and turn the wheel...

But then I am left with another topic, and I haven't seen that
simplicity (yet) with that...

Poisson's Ratio is understandable.
Let's only think about stretching an object (tension).
Let's make it a square cross-section bar.
You stretch the bar by pulling it
It obey's Hooke's Law, actually. Double the stress, double the
extension (within limits - not starting to plastically deform above
"yield")
If the bar has got longer but is still the same cross-section, it's
increased in volume (that would be a Poisson's Ratio of 0 (zero), by
the way).
That can't be right, can it?
Surely the material objects to that?
Doesn't it want to stay the same volume?
Well, if it did, that would be a Poisson's Ratio of 0.5
That is easy to see. Taking a cube - it has two ends. But four
sides. So the sides have to only "come in" half the distance that the
cube stretches to keep the volume the same. Think of little stretch -
and the new volume is a little thin square at each end. For constant
volume that is counterbalanced by four little squares at the sides of
half the thickness.
But that isn't what happens either.
The sides pull-in, but not as much as would give a constant volume.
Somewhere in-between...

The effect that would have can be visualised.
You know metals show more brittleness when they get thick?
When you stretch the big thick constrained object, the metal tries to
pull-in transversely - but can't, because all the other metal beside
it is trying to do likewise and none can have what they want because
they are constrained to a constant dimension - what you could measure
with a rule. That means a transverse stress must build-up in response.
Which is exactly what happens.
Fully dimensionally constrained, that is "plane-strain".

I think my test samples, the beam test, is thin enough that "sideways
pull-in" can and does happen. So as it is stretched, the sideways
contraction happens.

A spring is essentially one-dimensional (it has length).
Most of the time you use the Finite Element method because you want a 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional solution.
My impression is the Poisson's Ratio thing stops it being strictly a
simple spring. But at any one location on the model, it obeys the
laws of a spring. ie. F=kx

I have never worked as an engineer again since coming back from
working on the 3rd Bosphorus Bridge project in Turkey in 2015.
Where I was credit with making completion of the bridge possible.
That separation you talk of between theory and practice seems set into
the workplace.
As I span theory and practice, I don't fit any pidgeon-hole.
The poor sods look at me across the desk and cannot see how their
organisation as-is has anywhere I would fit. Constrained spaces...
That's why I work as a welder. I have to earn money some way, and
it's not a bad life.
It makes all the other crazy things possible, such as I decide I want
to sail yachts at sea and "just like that" I'm crew on yachts in
club races, heeled-over with sea breaking over the bow and all good
fun as part of a crew.

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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7vp6tct.fsf@void.com...

Your point about "ivory tower" (Europe / other parts of the world) and "practical" (North America) can be seen in Standards.
We have cascades of ISO's - huge paper exercises.

---------------

I'm convinced that a major goal of government regulation is to create paper-pushing employment for all-thumbs Liberal Arts majors, especially left-leaning ones who despise commerce. In college I was lectured that the
only ethical job choices are in academia and government.

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7vp6tct.fsf@void.com...

Your point about "ivory tower" (Europe / other parts of the world) and
"practical" (North America) can be seen in Standards.
We have cascades of ISO's - huge paper exercises.

---------------

I'm convinced that a major goal of government regulation is to create paper-pushing employment for all-thumbs Liberal Arts majors,
especially left-leaning ones who despise commerce. In college I was
lectured that the only ethical job choices are in academia and
government.

I do wander whether malaises I see in England / Britain have been due
to a political necessity to create "aspirant" "upwardly mobile"
"managerial" jobs for the bulk of the population no longer involved in manufacture.

Obviously "our election manifesto is excellent for you" isn't going to ring-true if you and most of your family are unemployed and in rapidly declining circumstances.

So while touting "free enterprise" the bigger reality has been a
"conspiracy" to have a significant part of the population in
"non-jobs" ultimately paid for by a National balance-of-payments
deficit and resultant Government borrowing?

I make you out as being right to be cynical about the "worthiness
indexes" you have had put to you.

Rich S

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7vp6tct.fsf@void.com...

Your point about "ivory tower" (Europe / other parts of the world) and "practical" (North America) can be seen in Standards.
We have cascades of ISO's - huge paper exercises.

---------------

I'm convinced that a major goal of government regulation is to create paper-pushing employment for all-thumbs Liberal Arts majors,
especially left-leaning ones who despise commerce. In college I was
lectured that the only ethical job choices are in academia and
government.

My impression (twisted, not-objective?) here in the UK is there a lot
of "robust talking free-market realists" striding around, making their utterances, wearing their suits, driving around the highways in their
German limousines, whose entire "wealth" and "success" is funded
entirely by the public purse - the National deficit. In effect, what
is seen are "empty suits".
??

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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lypmg3invi.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
.....
I make you out as being right to be cynical about the "worthiness
indexes" you have had put to you.

Rich S

--------------------

I've seen a lot of that, raising relative self-esteem by attempting to
debase others', but personally I carved out my own path and frustrated
attempts to bin me, as many have told me when they found I didn't fit their assumed stereotype. As a techie I wasn't supposed to know so much of
language, history, art and culture, for instance. Engineers have often
assigned me to flesh out their initial sketch of complex electronic circuits despite my having no EE degree, or in some cases design it from scratch,
such as a 16-bit data acquisition board to plug into a Macintosh when they couldn't buy a suitable one. In the 80's I designed and built my first
computer and digital voltmeter, and learned enough programming that my
homebrew computer could edit and assemble its own programs. That helped earn
me a place on the design team for new projects.

Good luck with your new King. We don't have nearly the grandeur of history
that you do, or that I explored in Germany and my sister in Britain and
Italy. It's interesting to watch (Lucy Worsley, Blackadder et al.) but I
don't think we miss it much. https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3658&context=etd
The first Wilkins in the Virginia Colony (1619) became a plantation owner, judge and member of the House of Burgesses. I could have been gentry.

I stumbled onto and watched a Revolutionary War battle re-enactment and
noticed that as many if not more people chose to play Redcoats.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lypmg3invi.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7vp6tct.fsf@void.com...

Your point about "ivory tower" (Europe / other parts of the world) and
"practical" (North America) can be seen in Standards.
We have cascades of ISO's - huge paper exercises.

---------------

I'm convinced that a major goal of government regulation is to create paper-pushing employment for all-thumbs Liberal Arts majors,
especially left-leaning ones who despise commerce. In college I was
lectured that the only ethical job choices are in academia and
government.

I do wander whether malaises I see in England / Britain have been due
to a political necessity to create "aspirant" "upwardly mobile"
"managerial" jobs for the bulk of the population no longer involved in manufacture.

Obviously "our election manifesto is excellent for you" isn't going to ring-true if you and most of your family are unemployed and in rapidly declining circumstances.

So while touting "free enterprise" the bigger reality has been a
"conspiracy" to have a significant part of the population in
"non-jobs" ultimately paid for by a National balance-of-payments
deficit and resultant Government borrowing?

I make you out as being right to be cynical about the "worthiness
indexes" you have had put to you.

Rich S

-------------

I've seen considerable disdain for productive work, mainly from those who
were well educated but couldn't tie shoe laces. I was active in Mensa where everyone was smart but not necessarily any good at manual tasks like
steering a canoe, which is so obvious to me that I don't know what to tell someone who can't. I was the only one who could skip a flat stone across
water.

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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyillvil16.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7vp6tct.fsf@void.com...

Your point about "ivory tower" (Europe / other parts of the world) and "practical" (North America) can be seen in Standards.
We have cascades of ISO's - huge paper exercises.

---------------

I'm convinced that a major goal of government regulation is to create paper-pushing employment for all-thumbs Liberal Arts majors,
especially left-leaning ones who despise commerce. In college I was
lectured that the only ethical job choices are in academia and
government.

My impression (twisted, not-objective?) here in the UK is there a lot
of "robust talking free-market realists" striding around, making their utterances, wearing their suits, driving around the highways in their
German limousines, whose entire "wealth" and "success" is funded
entirely by the public purse - the National deficit. In effect, what
is seen are "empty suits".
??

-------------------------

One interpretation of the Pareto Principle or 80/20 rule is that 20% of the people, the "Vital Few", do 80% of the necessary work, and support the rest
who ideally should stay out of their way, but don't because they need to
feel important.

In the US Army at the end of the Vietnam War discipline collapsed because
any attempt to punish a non-white became a Racial Incident. Drugs flowed so freely that barracks inspections stopped so the officers wouldn't have to ignore the punchbowls of hashish. Yet the responsible few were enough to
keep everything running as smoothly as normal, as I suspect they always had.

That was another case of creating my own path. I had trained to repair very complex communications gear and was on call for repair trips, so I couldn't
be assigned to any other task I couldn't drop immediately. I became post photographer, worked with the USO, fixed stuff in the motor pool, went on meet-the-Germans trips such as a tour of their very orderly sewage treatment plant and was the one token NCO at an officers' banquet at Heidelberg
Castle, where I danced on the huge wine keg with the Colonel's otherwise ignored wife.

I was designated to attend a seminar on alcohol and drugs that showed their effects on the blood flow in frogs' transparent feet, mainly restricting or stopping the flow through capillaries, as they also do in the brain. It was held at a Kaserne with an emergency airstrip so I could easily be picked up
by helo or bush plane for a mission. The other stuckees were privates who
could be spared without loss so the lecturer was surprised to meet a chemist who understood his work and asked difficult questions. The government
research grants I'd worked on were, um, related. My job was adding a
Deuterium tag so MRI could detect where [things] were active.

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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tfhvv4$1dk1b$1@dont-email.me...

...
I stumbled onto and watched a Revolutionary War battle re-enactment and
noticed that as many if not more people chose to play Redcoats.

-----------------

https://www.fortgriswold.org/patriots-redcoats-participating-groups/
"Rather than being Anglophiles, the 40th is a group who thinks the best way
to honor this country’s history is to present our early military adversaries as the professional, practical, and tough fighting force they were."

Besides, the Redcoats looked better and won more battles. France gained the victory for us, as revenge for losing the Seven Years War.

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A lot drops into place - the overall background you mention.
Sounds good to me.

Thanks for mentioning The Pareto Principle.

Funnily enough, not knowing of that until you mention in now, the
exasperated bane of my life during my Doctorate was the perception of
the seductive allure of "those results which are 80% as good but only
take 20% of the effort".
They never said anything exactly that, but that was my sarcastic characterisation of the indispline and lack of strength of character
to make the effort and win the commercially valuable goals. Well, as I
saw it.
Reality - maybe only in research but likely in other endeavours -
Nature / "God" will not reveal secrets and inner workings unless you
work really really hard and diligently study, observe, work-around,
probe and otherwise by the disciplined supplicant on the path to the
answer.
I ended my Doctorate as a lone effort, with senior people cynical with
the humdrum disappointment of life tolerated my crazy drive to get
there. And casting me the occasional tiny gift which was the key to a particular door.

Regards,
Rich Smith

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I've seen a lot of that, raising relative self-esteem by attempting to
debase others', ...

Or as a friend puts it "Your candle does not burn brighter because you
blow out the candles of others" ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyh71equhu.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I've seen a lot of that, raising relative self-esteem by attempting to
debase others', ...

Or as a friend puts it "Your candle does not burn brighter because you
blow out the candles of others" ?

------------------

I liked the attitude expressed by a Japanese auto maker (Honda?) on entering the US market that they weren't trying to grab a bigger piece of the pie,
they wanted to create a bigger pie.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyh71equhu.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I've seen a lot of that, raising relative self-esteem by attempting to
debase others', ...

Or as a friend puts it "Your candle does not burn brighter because you
blow out the candles of others" ?

-----------------------

Here is a difference between Britain and the US that relates to acquiring a zero-sum mentality:

https://www.litzusa.com/en-us/StudyusaRecords/detail/UK-vs-USA-School-levels

"Grades in UK are often given according to bell curve; if majority get 90 on
a test, then 90 = C, only the top 10% will get an A. In US if you get 90% correct on a test you'll receive an A; if everyone received 90% or higher everyone in class can get an A."

The theatre classes I and some friends took as required liberal arts
electives were a welcome break from the grind of a science degree because
they were graded pass/fail, and everyone who at least attended class passed. When the teacher asked the class a question we techies were usually the
first to raise our hands, the actors and dancers rarely said anything. I suppose we had less to lose if we embarrassed ourselves. Also we were used
to participating, in the math, physics and chemistry classes many hands
would go up. I earned a C in Calculus that was raised to a B for sitting in front and answering questions, right or wrong.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"zero-sum" is problematic.
Take that view to manufacturing and construction and it's disastrous.
The endeavour is doomed from the outset with "zero-summers" in charge
and influencing events.
I think that was the difference with my work on the 3rd Bosphorus
Bridge project in Turkey 2015.
I interacted with people, even if they were with different parties
whre the realtionship was strained - that just made the steps very
small but always pointing in the right direction - and coaxed everyone
along with a vision of a way out of their pain. But most "solutions"
- a lot of heads came together for most of those, and of the
exceptions it was still in the main two or more heads.
Some conversations were in closed-door rooms with top representatives
of the parties, with all agreeing that what was said in this room
stayed in this room - and some very senior people had some very rough
things put to them...
What I did running between parties and linking them where by common
interest and being different parts of the one solution to that issue
or aspect was credited with making the completion of thwe bridge
possible.

You remind me of "the zero sum trap" - might work for the service
economy so long as you have a financial perpetual motion machine - but
you can never run a manufacturing economy that way.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I think grades should have two parts - an absolute correctness depth
of knowledge grade and a percentile of the year.
Thus "A-62" is "A" for correctness, while the "60" says they were at
the 62% of that year.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyedwh925z.fsf@void.com...

"zero-sum" is problematic.
Take that view to manufacturing and construction and it's disastrous.
The endeavour is doomed from the outset with "zero-summers" in charge
and influencing events.
I think that was the difference with my work on the 3rd Bosphorus
Bridge project in Turkey 2015.
I interacted with people, even if they were with different parties
whre the realtionship was strained - that just made the steps very
small but always pointing in the right direction - and coaxed everyone
along with a vision of a way out of their pain. But most "solutions"
- a lot of heads came together for most of those, and of the
exceptions it was still in the main two or more heads.
Some conversations were in closed-door rooms with top representatives
of the parties, with all agreeing that what was said in this room
stayed in this room - and some very senior people had some very rough
things put to them...
What I did running between parties and linking them where by common
interest and being different parts of the one solution to that issue
or aspect was credited with making the completion of thwe bridge
possible.

You remind me of "the zero sum trap" - might work for the service
economy so long as you have a financial perpetual motion machine - but
you can never run a manufacturing economy that way.

----------------
Zero-sum assumes people are unable to create anything new and valuable,
which may be true of those who believe it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavuz_Sultan_Selim_Bridge
"Work was temporarily halted in July 2013, after it became evident that the site was mislocated, ..."

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/3rd-bosphorus-bridge-worlds-widest

Are you able to reveal any (non-personnel) engineering aspects of what you contributed to bridge completion?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 11/09/2022 14:04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:lyh71equhu.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I've seen a lot of that, raising relative self-esteem by attempting to
debase others', ...

Or as a friend puts it "Your candle does not burn brighter because you
blow out the candles of others" ?

-----------------------

Here is a difference between Britain and the US that relates to
acquiring a zero-sum mentality:

https://www.litzusa.com/en-us/StudyusaRecords/detail/UK-vs-USA-School-levels

"Grades in UK are often given according to bell curve; if majority get
90 on a test, then 90 = C, only the top 10% will get an A. In US if
you get 90% correct on a test you'll receive an A; if everyone
received 90% or higher everyone in class can get an A."

The theatre classes I and some friends took as required liberal arts electives were a welcome break from the grind of a science degree
because they were graded pass/fail, and everyone who at least attended
class passed. When the teacher asked the class a question we techies
were usually the first to raise our hands, the actors and dancers
rarely said anything. I suppose we had less to lose if we embarrassed ourselves. Also we were used to participating, in the math, physics
and chemistry classes many hands would go up. I earned a C in Calculus
that was raised to a B for sitting in front and answering questions,
right or wrong.

Having been in the US education system up till 1982 when I graduated
from high school then moved back to the UK I think the comparison of the education standards is not easy as I don't recall the US having any
basic standardised tests other than SAT. In the UK at the time there
were O levels, now GCSE, and A levels, my US high school diploma was
considered equivalent to O levels so//I was effectively 2 years behind
where I would have been if educated in the UK. The fact I normally took
the more higher level courses in maths, chemistry, physics etc made no difference as there was no way to show what was covered to compare. I
know at least one of my US teachers graded on a bell curve and I wasn't
always popular for getting high marks as it skewed others downwards.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavuz_Sultan_Selim_Bridge
"Work was temporarily halted in July 2013, after it became evident
that the site was mislocated, ..."

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/3rd-bosphorus-bridge-worlds-widest

Are you able to reveal any (non-personnel) engineering aspects of what
you contributed to bridge completion?

As the bridge was being built to an application Standard, EN1090, and
that was the basis of contract. All parties therefore took the
responsible sensible step and employed "Code-talkers" /
"Standards-talkers" to defend their interests. Nothing more than what
the Standard obligates the employing organisation to do.
Problem - fill a room with "Code-talkers" and they "defend" each other
to a stop. They only object - they don't suggest.
Paperwork was being generated everywhere, all giving a rosy picture -
yet the bridge was not progressing.

I wrote a memoir http://weldsmith.co.uk/career/writing/3bb_2015/1703_3BBp_RDS_memoir.html "Memoir - the 3rd Bosphorus Bridge project, Turkey, 2015"
It says the best that can be said what I did there.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lya67591xz.fsf@void.com...

I think grades should have two parts - an absolute correctness depth
of knowledge grade and a percentile of the year.
Thus "A-62" is "A" for correctness, while the "60" says they were at
the 62% of that year.

----------------

The article I referenced said that British students were regrouped by
ability, so they were graded on a relative scale against near-peers. Was
that your experience?

Mine, from the 50's and 60's, was that we were grouped by age rather than ability and stayed together throughout, unless one fell or was pushed into Advanced Placement, which made the first year at college merely a review.

Mixing the children of mill workers with those of elite prep school teachers was somewhat troublesome but it fits our notion of equality, and the
absolute grading scale gave anyone with ambition a fair chance.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"David Billington" wrote in message news:tfli4v$21gvp$1@dont-email.me...

On 11/09/2022 14:04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyh71equhu.fsf@void.com...

......

Having been in the US education system up till 1982 when I graduated
from high school then moved back to the UK I think the comparison of the education standards is not easy as I don't recall the US having any
basic standardised tests other than SAT. In the UK at the time there
were O levels, now GCSE, and A levels, my US high school diploma was
considered equivalent to O levels so//I was effectively 2 years behind
where I would have been if educated in the UK. The fact I normally took
the more higher level courses in maths, chemistry, physics etc made no difference as there was no way to show what was covered to compare. I
know at least one of my US teachers graded on a bell curve and I wasn't
always popular for getting high marks as it skewed others downwards.

-----------------
The SAT system had specialized achievement tests in math, physics, language, English composition (on which my gf scored 800) and so on.

My BS in Chemistry meant nothing when I enrolled in night school to try for
an EE degree; I had to start with Algebra. I found the math courses much
easier to follow when taught by instructors with a productive day job who
used it as a practical tool, instead of as an art form.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly4jxd1so5.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I wrote a memoir http://weldsmith.co.uk/career/writing/3bb_2015/1703_3BBp_RDS_memoir.html "Memoir - the 3rd Bosphorus Bridge project, Turkey, 2015"
It says the best that can be said what I did there.

------------------------

EXCELLENT!!

Neville Shute didn't explain technical problems that well.

Thank you very much.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

"David Billington" wrote in message news:tfli4v$21gvp$1@dont-email.me...

On 11/09/2022 14:04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyh71equhu.fsf@void.com...

......

Having been in the US education system up till 1982 when I graduated
from high school then moved back to the UK I think the comparison of the education standards is not easy as I don't recall the US having any
basic standardised tests other than SAT. In the UK at the time there
were O levels, now GCSE, and A levels, my US high school diploma was considered equivalent to O levels so//I was effectively 2 years behind
where I would have been if educated in the UK. The fact I normally took
the more higher level courses in maths, chemistry, physics etc made no difference as there was no way to show what was covered to compare. I
know at least one of my US teachers graded on a bell curve and I wasn't always popular for getting high marks as it skewed others downwards.

-----------------
The SAT system had specialized achievement tests in math, physics,
language, English composition (on which my gf scored 800) and so on.

My BS in Chemistry meant nothing when I enrolled in night school to
try for an EE degree; I had to start with Algebra. I found the math
courses much easier to follow when taught by instructors with a
productive day job who used it as a practical tool, instead of as an
art form.

My first and most important task, almost sole task, was to show that
the concept within the maths is useful and good.
In some practical way.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly1qshf2ul.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

...I found the math
courses much easier to follow when taught by instructors with a
productive day job who used it as a practical tool, instead of as an
art form.

My first and most important task, almost sole task, was to show that
the concept within the maths is useful and good.
In some practical way.

--------------------

Unfortunately the application may not be evident at first. I saw no use for
the "imaginary" math of the square root of -1 when I learned it. If it
doesn't really exist, what good is it in our world??

Much later when I got into digital radio I found that it was the preferred
tool to model AC power for multiphase motors and signals for radio
modulation.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/radio-frequency-analysis-design/radio-frequency-demodulation/understanding-i-q-signals-and-quadrature-modulation/

"It turns out that any form of modulation can be performed simply by varying the amplitude—only the amplitude—of I and Q signals, and then adding them together."

The amplitude of a sine or cosine wave is very easy to control at high speed with a computer. Likewise it's easy to measure in the receiver. The tech benefited from the rapid advances in digital storage oscilloscopes which are similar.

This means that the hardware of a digital radio circuit can become anything
the attached computer tells it to be. In principle the same circuit could function as an inverter welder, AC power generator, a stereo, a shortwave,
AM or FM radio or a TV. Although they are meant for 1~2GHz, cell phone receivers can double as 100MHz FM radios by using the ear bud cable as the antenna.

The relevant math trick is to place the Q component in the imaginary realm
so an equation can contain both I and Q, without them interacting until
desired to. Graphically they are orthogonal, at a right angle to each other.
To avoid confusion the square root of -1 is called 'j' in electronics. Your brilliant WW2 Huff-Duff U-boot location system used this scheme, as does the digital radio in cell phones. For motors I describes the real power that you pay for, Q the apparent power temporarily stored in capacitance and
inductance.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

...

Unfortunately the application may not be evident at first. I saw no
use for the "imaginary" math of the square root of -1 when I learned
it. If it doesn't really exist, what good is it in our world??

Much later when I got into digital radio I found that it was the
preferred tool to model AC power for multiphase motors and signals for
radio modulation.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/radio-frequency-analysis-design/radio-frequency-demodulation/understanding-i-q-signals-and-quadrature-modulation/

"It turns out that any form of modulation can be performed simply by
varying the amplitude—only the amplitude—of I and Q signals, and then adding them together."

The amplitude of a sine or cosine wave is very easy to control at high
speed with a computer. Likewise it's easy to measure in the
receiver. The tech benefited from the rapid advances in digital
storage oscilloscopes which are similar.

This means that the hardware of a digital radio circuit can become
anything the attached computer tells it to be. In principle the same
circuit could function as an inverter welder, AC power generator, a
stereo, a shortwave, AM or FM radio or a TV. Although they are meant
for 1~2GHz, cell phone receivers can double as 100MHz FM radios by
using the ear bud cable as the antenna.

The relevant math trick is to place the Q component in the imaginary
realm so an equation can contain both I and Q, without them
interacting until desired to. Graphically they are orthogonal, at a
right angle to each other. To avoid confusion the square root of -1 is
called 'j' in electronics. Your brilliant WW2 Huff-Duff U-boot
location system used this scheme, as does the digital radio in cell
phones. For motors I describes the real power that you pay for, Q the apparent power temporarily stored in capacitance and inductance.

It has to simply be seen to work.
See that and apply them.
You are going to start noticing things and it may draw you to the
theory.

I think it's helpful to say you don't have to "understand" maths. You
must start off simply "cranking" it - then you have a basis, a
foundation, where you might study and get a bit knowledgable.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Anyone able to explain the meaning of this? http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/220907_bcfwtt3D_pr_var/grf_pr/220912_var-pr_maxdisply_plot.png
The material has the Elastic Modulus of steel at 210GPa. But that
spectrum of Poisson's Ratios - just to see what happens.
And what you see happens...

The physical object modelled is this

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/210122_fwtest_rig/210122_fwtest_testrig.html
"Tensile-test rig for beam-configuration fillet-weld samples"

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/201124_fwbeamt/201124_fwbeamt.html "Fillet welds tensile tested in beam test"

Why that flat area on the otherwise downsloping graph?

The range of deflections isn't that great, it needs to be said.
So it's not "world-changing".

BTW that range of Poisson's Ratios where nothing changes from about
0.3 to 0.43 about matches the Poisson's Ratio of most engineering
alloys...

?!?!?!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfkwmiw3.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
.....

I think it's helpful to say you don't have to "understand" maths. You
must start off simply "cranking" it - then you have a basis, a
foundation, where you might study and get a bit knowledgable.

My head doesn't operate well that way. I'm pretty good at visualizing and animating things in 3 dimension but when I can't I have trouble relating and filing away their formulas. For example when I first learned calculus in college I could memorize some of the differential and integral rules and formulas and look up the rest. I could "see" the functions of powers and
roots and how to set up the equations to solve the problem but I couldn't
for trigonometry. I got the right answers for trig and log problems but
didn't really understand why, so the lesson didn't all make it into my long term memory. I still have to pause to reconstruct in Pythagorean terms why SIN^2 X + COS^2 X = 1

The second time I took Calc in night school the instructor spent two weeks explaining the underlying limit process and everything finally made sense.
At work I was solving calculus problems of inductance and capacitance in my head, I = C dV/dT and V = L dI/dT.

Tonight's mechanical problem is to dream up, bend and attach a wire support
leg for a power supply that folds either straight out or back flush.
It's for this, and I neglected to consider that small stick-on feet wouldn't let enough air out the bottom vents. https://www.amazon.com/Deeoee-DPS5015-USB-DPS5020-USB-Constant-Converter/dp/B0981D6HMD
It took a little while to realize that the pivot arms should rest at 45
degrees to the case bottom either way. I might be getting old.

You mentioned uncertainty about MIG arc voltage. The standard way to
compensate for high current cable voltage drops is to run thin wires from
the cable ends back to the source, called a "Kelvin" or 4-wire connection.
It could be taped to the outside if it can't be fished through internally.
At the power source housing where the wires can be tied down they go into a voltmeter whose power supply floats relative to the welding power, to allow
for the different "ground" voltages. I use cheap/free obsolete 5V cell phone chargers to power floating meters.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyillsmgvg.fsf@void.com...

Anyone able to explain the meaning of this? http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/220907_bcfwtt3D_pr_var/grf_pr/220912_var-pr_maxdisply_plot.png
The material has the Elastic Modulus of steel at 210GPa. But that
spectrum of Poisson's Ratios - just to see what happens.
And what you see happens...

The physical object modelled is this

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/210122_fwtest_rig/210122_fwtest_testrig.html
"Tensile-test rig for beam-configuration fillet-weld samples"

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/201124_fwbeamt/201124_fwbeamt.html "Fillet welds tensile tested in beam test"

Why that flat area on the otherwise downsloping graph?

The range of deflections isn't that great, it needs to be said.
So it's not "world-changing".

BTW that range of Poisson's Ratios where nothing changes from about
0.3 to 0.43 about matches the Poisson's Ratio of most engineering
alloys...

?!?!?!

-------------------------

Could the flat be from a dip on the stress/strain curve between the linear
and plastic regions? I haven't measured the dip but I can definitely feel
it, as when straightening copper wire by stretching it.

Lacking a pressure gauge or easy way to add one, (the quick connects and tee
I suggested previously is lab-only fragile) you could make an adapter to use
a beam-type torque wrench as the pump handle, without other modification to someone else's pump. It should be at least a repeatable and recordable numerical indicator and could be calibrated. The adapter could be a
crows-foot wrench or impact adapter welded to tubing or a turned stub of rod stock.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tfofkf$2cfga$1@dont-email.me...

The adapter could be a
crows-foot wrench or impact adapter welded to tubing or a turned stub of rod stock.

---------------------

The square hole to round peg adapter I proposed might be more adaptable with two slugs of round stock fish-mouthed to the socket on opposite sides, so it can be chucked and turned in a lathe to fit your now and future pumps.

That stunt of yours with the 3mm ball end mill reminded me of Richard
Feynman dunking the Shuttle O ring in his drinking glass of ice water. So simple yet so effective.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

...

Could the flat be from a dip on the stress/strain curve between the
linear and plastic regions? I haven't measured the dip but I can
definitely feel it, as when straightening copper wire by stretching
it.

Lacking a pressure gauge or easy way to add one, (the quick connects
and tee I suggested previously is lab-only fragile) you could make an
adapter to use a beam-type torque wrench as the pump handle, without
other modification to someone else's pump. It should be at least a
repeatable and recordable numerical indicator and could be
calibrated. The adapter could be a crows-foot wrench or impact adapter
welded to tubing or a turned stub of rod stock.

Sorry - those results are in the parallel universe of numbers and
arithmetic relationships.
That's the Finite Element Analysis output.
A linear-elastic FEA has not yield (and implicitly infinite strength).

You are thinking of the physical phenomenon which gives the Luders
Bands on the bottom of a spray-can (for cheapness they don't
"temper-roll" as they do for cars just before pressing so they don't
have Luders Bands).

I think this is a case of "Texas sharpshooting".
(apologies in advance to Texans).
That is - you fire a magazine-full / a chamber-full of rounds at the
barn wall and draw a ring around the tightest cluster.
I perceived a pattern in the rendered "deflection in 'y'" output images, and went looking for it. Which means there's already a non-random
contribution.

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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{thumbs-up}

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tfooc6$2fv9t$1@dont-email.me...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tfofkf$2cfga$1@dont-email.me...

The adapter could be a
crows-foot wrench or impact adapter welded to tubing or a turned stub of rod stock.

---------------------

The square hole to round peg adapter I proposed might be more adaptable with two slugs of round stock fish-mouthed to the socket on opposite sides, so it can be chucked and turned in a lathe to fit your now and future pumps.

-----------------

The beam torque wrench I was thinking of when I wrote that ends in a 1-1/4" cylinder parallel to and centered around the beam that would easily adapt in-line to the pump handle socket but I didn't see an image like it on
Google. I think the usual type with the end cylinder at a right angle would work if the square socket it plugs into is offset on a bar welded across the end of the rod/tube that fits the pump socket, to center the beam so the
handle doesn't twist.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lymtb3a8ki.fsf@void.com...

I think this is a case of "Texas sharpshooting".
(apologies in advance to Texans).
That is - you fire a magazine-full / a chamber-full of rounds at the
barn wall and draw a ring around the tightest cluster.

----------------------

That sighting-in method saves cease-fire interruptions and walks downrange
to change targets. After you have minimized the group size in fresh areas of the target you can adjust the sights onto the bullseye.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lymtb3a8ki.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

Could the flat be from a dip on the stress/strain curve between the
linear and plastic regions? I haven't measured the dip but I can
definitely feel it, as when straightening copper wire by stretching
it.

Sorry - those results are in the parallel universe of numbers and
arithmetic relationships.
That's the Finite Element Analysis output.
A linear-elastic FEA has not yield (and implicitly infinite strength).

You are thinking of the physical phenomenon which gives the Luders
Bands on the bottom of a spray-can (for cheapness they don't
"temper-roll" as they do for cars just before pressing so they don't
have Luders Bands).

-----------------

Being a lab tech I tend to think of graphs as measurement results instead of simulations.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Jim - I lost the response where I posted a graph which was of output
from the Finite Element program and you responded.

I plotted the "maximum deflection in 'y' (vertical)" against Poisson's
Ratio. http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/struct/220907_bcfwtt3D_pr_var/grf_pr/220912_var-pr_maxdisply_plot.png

Mistaken for a physical data plot.

Thing is with all computer-numerical solutions : they don't reveal proportionality.
With say beam calculations - you can look at the answer so far and
work-out about what you have to do to get a value you need - a
load-bearing capacity or something like that. You can do a lot of
fine-tuning. I realised that say you could be making a gantry for
hoisting and you could first-and-foremost make sure it would bend all
the way to the floor without buckling - never have a drop in
load-bearing capacity all the way to a cartoon-like "Ooops!" end. A
"graceful failure".
How you got that with a smaller cross-section square-hollow beam with
thicker wall then meant that while still good, you'd see overload as a
visible *elastic" bend of the top beam.
Etc., etc., etc.

You don't get that with a computer-numerical solution.

So with a computer-numerical solution for a system of underlying
equations, you have to run the solution multiple times and do as I did
- plot the trend.

However - the computer-numerical solution - in this case Finite
Element Analysis modelling - can calculate the answer for "impossibly" complicated shapes for which there is zero possibility of an
"analytical" solution - an "on-paper arithmetic solution".

So you do horses-for-courses.
With structures, I think you might design overall with the long beams
with (Euler-Bernoulli) beam - the arithmetic calculations with proportionalities all in-view.
Then use FEA to design the end connections *knowing already* what force
and moments (twists) they must take.

Hope this is suitable return for effort where I have sometimes not
been clear and mislead effort.

Regards,
Rich Smith

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly1qse8lx8.fsf@void.com...

... I realised that say you could be making a gantry for
hoisting and you could first-and-foremost make sure it would bend all
the way to the floor without buckling - never have a drop in
load-bearing capacity all the way to a cartoon-like "Ooops!" end. A
"graceful failure".

---------------------

I assembled the gantry with what I calculated was more than adequate center splice strength (unknown scrap steel quality) and then proof-tested it with
a crane scale, to see if the deflection matched calculations and the parts I made to very close tolerances would bind when disassembled. As hoped,
torsional rigidity of the 4" channels was the weakest link. They were
somewhat bowed from previous service and the kinks were too difficult to straighten completely with my limited equipment.

It was marginally adequate with a 2000 lb central load and only end supports 16' apart which is as expected. I had planned for a central support and
worked out a procedure to lower the load at the center and walk the two diagonal legs over it (a 12' long log) which kept the beam stresses well
below the proof test.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tfsfqh$2uc2i$1@dont-email.me...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly1qse8lx8.fsf@void.com...

... I realised that say you could be making a gantry for
hoisting and you could first-and-foremost make sure it would bend all
the way to the floor without buckling - never have a drop in
load-bearing capacity all the way to a cartoon-like "Ooops!" end. A
"graceful failure".

---------------------

I assembled the gantry with what I calculated was more than adequate center splice strength (unknown scrap steel quality) and then proof-tested it with
a crane scale, to see if the deflection matched calculations and the parts I made to very close tolerances would bind when disassembled. As hoped,
torsional rigidity of the 4" channels was the weakest link. They were
somewhat bowed from previous service and the kinks were too difficult to straighten completely with my limited equipment.

It was marginally adequate with a 2000 lb central load and only end supports 16' apart which is as expected. I had planned for a central support and
worked out a procedure to lower the load at the center and walk the two diagonal legs over it (a 12' long log) which kept the beam stresses well
below the proof test.
------------------

The design process went backwards; I bought likely-looking used steel as I found it and then tried to make the best use of it. When designing custom equipment I found that the right materials to do it one way usually sufficed
to make it another when the customer revised the spec. I could order
material based on early guesses pretty safely. That way our machine was
ready to test the module when it went into production, and we kept winning contracts.

One example that I thought was funny was having to add a smoke detector and emergency shut-down to the "burn-in" station for Chrysler Lean-Burn engine controllers. Let's say the design was a bit deficient under certain circumstances, from being on too tight of a timetable. I also burned up a prototype GM fuel injection controller by stressing it to its specified
limits, which their lab equipment couldn't reach.

The sensors added to enable closed-loop combustion control were ones I was familiar with from Chemistry.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

..., except perhaps that Americans tend to
be more hands-on and foreigners more theoretical, or perhaps
disdainful of manual labor.

There is a red-blooded can-do attitude in America, as I have met it.
That is the image of America too.

... For example a project manager for a -very-
large company, an EE Ph.D. from India, didn't know that resistors have
a tolerance, he expected 8 digit accuracy from an analog computing
circuit.

Be a bit forgiving of these academics.
No-one talks with them seriously.
The working world tends to be something of a miasma of uselessness
anyway compared to what the potential could be, so for anything good
to seep in for budding academics to tune into isn't that probable
anyway.

I finished my Doctorate having solved not one but two previous
unknowns about why the newer High-Strength Low-Alloy
Thermo-Mechanically Controlled-Processed steels, then only from
Germany and Japan, have properties so advantageous beyond
comprehension compared to "classic" C-Mn steels

* high weldability - most of the time weld with zero precautions
(preheat, etc.)

* highly resistant to "sour" (acidic with hydrogen sulphide) crude
oils such at a pipeline can carry quite sour oils without problem

and titled my Doctoral thesis
"Hydrogen distribution and redistribution in the weld zone of
constructional steels"
when the correct/reasonable/informative title would have been
"Hydrogen distribution and redistribution in the weld zone of
*structural* steels"

-or "structural and pipeline steels"

because no-one was talking with me.

In my experience the engineering professors and students mutually
respected each other, it was a pleasant environment although the
coursework was difficult. The grad students I shared the lab with on summertime government research projects were always very helpful.

Most would respect that what they know in detail is very little in the
big picture and would respect you a lot...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly35cqqr05.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

I finished my Doctorate having solved not one but two previous
unknowns about why the newer High-Strength Low-Alloy
Thermo-Mechanically Controlled-Processed steels, then only from
Germany and Japan, have properties so advantageous beyond
comprehension compared to "classic" C-Mn steels

* high weldability - most of the time weld with zero precautions
(preheat, etc.)

* highly resistant to "sour" (acidic with hydrogen sulphide) crude
oils such at a pipeline can carry quite sour oils without problem

and titled my Doctoral thesis
"Hydrogen distribution and redistribution in the weld zone of
constructional steels"
when the correct/reasonable/informative title would have been
"Hydrogen distribution and redistribution in the weld zone of
*structural* steels"

-or "structural and pipeline steels"
because no-one was talking with me.

----------------------

"Constructional" is an accepted term if not the most common one. Really the words you use only matter to someone doing a literature search. We took a
full semester course on searching for information as well as writing with defined and well-understood terminology, something like legalese. https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/journal-of-constructional-steel-research

Your work wasn't lost: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Hydrogen-distribution-and-redistribution-in-the-of-Smith/d2acda337d3a7418f35643a606d67ce06329b610

We covered that subject lightly, a chemical engineer would have learned much more. In the 1960's the tools to analyze single-atom surface layers were
still in development and the mechanisms of crack formation and propagation
were speculative and disputed.

"If hydrogen eases dislocation production, as is indicated by previous observations of hydrogen
and liquid metals at surfaces, the finding of easier faster void growth
could reasonably
be expected to follow."

A chemist's task would be to find a way to measure it.

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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly35cqqr05.fsf@void.com...

Be a bit forgiving of these academics.
No-one talks with them seriously.
The working world tends to be something of a miasma of uselessness
anyway compared to what the potential could be, so for anything good
to seep in for budding academics to tune into isn't that probable
anyway.

--------------------------

Governmental decision makers definitely listen to academics, as unbiased outside experts. The University I attended is quite strong in ocean research and the space program.

Cooperation among government, industry and academia became critical for the technological advancements of WW2, like radar and Ultra, and exposed the dilemma of spending public money on patentable private developments, a
larger scale replay of your R100 / R101 social experiment. Conversely
industry was/is reluctant to support research their competitors could freely use. This remains a serious issue in medical research, so we have the CDC
where my cousin's wife was a senior researcher.

Academia was hoped to be an acceptable alternative but it brought its own problems such as disdain for 'militarism' and commerce and lack of current practical experience. Some of my professors would only work on "pure" theoretical projects with no immediate application and tried to convert us
to that ethic.

The solution we settled on was to contract research to private nonprofits established to work on complex multi-disciplinary technical matters.

https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/ffrdclist/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation

Mitre's historical expertise was in radio communications and radar, my job
was building proof-of-concept hardware for evolving computer-based solutions since I also understood the computer and measurement circuits critical for digital radio.

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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

... Some of my professors would only work on
"pure" theoretical projects with no immediate application and tried to convert us to that ethic.

Yes - poor academic scientists when their place gets intruded-into by industrial scientists.
One threatened to get up and leave the meeting, before looking around
and realising we were in his office... (!)

The solution we settled on was to contract research to private
nonprofits established to work on complex multi-disciplinary technical matters.
https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/ffrdclist/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation

Reality - the US manages its economy and technology and lot, and so
must it be.
Get it right and you end up with a very activie competitive knowledge-generation activity.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly35clt2v4.fsf@void.com...

Reality - the US manages its economy and technology and lot, and so
must it be.
Get it right and you end up with a very activie competitive knowledge-generation activity.

-----------------

In the USA we have public, collective and private management of
infrastructure and sometimes threaten to or actually swap between them as an incentive to improve management. https://www.powermag.com/public-vs-private-whats-best-for-power-customers/

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-05-13-fi-3182-story.html

As I see it, the conflict is between efficiency which benefits the high achievers, and fairness to the low achievers. Business seeks efficiency, government fairness, and they aren't compatible. Perhaps the right answer is
to keep it fluid to actively maintain a balance.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

...
As I see it, the conflict is between efficiency which benefits the
high achievers, and fairness to the low achievers. Business seeks
efficiency, government fairness, and they aren't compatible. Perhaps
the right answer is to keep it fluid to actively maintain a balance.

Yes, that would seem right, according to observation.
Example:
we have "the British Broadcasting Corporation" (the BBC), and we have independent channels.
Either extreme, one model only, would be rubbish.
The independent channels have to compete on quality.
The BBC has to find audiences.

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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lywn9wk0s9.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

...
As I see it, the conflict is between efficiency which benefits the
high achievers, and fairness to the low achievers. Business seeks
efficiency, government fairness, and they aren't compatible. Perhaps
the right answer is to keep it fluid to actively maintain a balance.

Yes, that would seem right, according to observation.
Example:
we have "the British Broadcasting Corporation" (the BBC), and we have independent channels.
Either extreme, one model only, would be rubbish.
The independent channels have to compete on quality.
The BBC has to find audiences.

---------------------

Some of your BBC and ITV programming appears in the US on the non-commercial PBS network. They also show French and Japanese news in English, and used to run Vremya news in Russian with subtitles. I've been watching the SOKO
Potsdam detective (Kripo) series from German ZDF. if I play it back at half speed I can partly understand them.

I remember pirate stations broadcasting from ships. In fact, I remember watching the Queen's coronation on TV.

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