I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
. I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to begin
with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few bucks
instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt just
in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .
On 3/18/2023 12:01 PM, Snag wrote:
I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture
wrong . I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to
begin with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few
bucks instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt
just in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .
Would it work with a down cut?
"Snag" wrote in message news:tv51p5$2jtva$1@dont-email.me...
I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
. I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to begin
with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few bucks
instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt just
in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .
Snag
------------------
How wrong?
I don't think the exact angle matters much as long as the cutting edges aren't straight across, the tips touch the work first. When I sharpen a
4 flute I may have to rotate the flute being ground somewhat to clear
the next one, and that changes the 2 degree angle, but I don't notice a problem when milling with it.
If your end angle is large enough to show in the tool marks you could
rotate the fixture base on the mag chuck to decrease it.
I've squared off and then reground a chipped brand-name endmill entirely
by hand to rough it to shape before finishing it on the surface grinder.
As a test it did cut smoothly with the one longest flute.
If the collet tilts the wrong way and you intend to grind on a vertical
mill you can just reverse the spindle to grind into the edge of a right
hand endmill.
On 3/18/2023 12:01 PM, Snag wrote:
I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
.
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5rin$2qrj7$1@dont-email.me...
If I rotate the base of my fixture 30 degrees CCW it leans 2 degrees to
the right, to grind a LH endmill. The correction for an accidentally left-handed base would be to rotate it 30 degrees CW.
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5rin$2qrj7$1@dont-email.me...
If I rotate the base of my fixture 30 degrees CCW it leans 2 degrees to
the right, to grind a LH endmill. The correction for an accidentally left-handed base would be to rotate it 30 degrees CW.
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5vrk$2rfln$1@dont-email.me...
And tomorrow I'll be out looking for the spring C clip that popped off the front axle of my truck and vanished where a magnetic sweeper couldn't find it. Although it also didn't find the clip, at night the thermal imager made everything lying on the ground including a sample tarp grommet stand out in high contrast to the warmer earth. It may be in a snow bank that I'll
screen
tomorrow.
-----------------------------
It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally
let Jeezus clips get away like that.
On 3/19/2023 1:39 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5vrk$2rfln$1@dont-email.me...
And tomorrow I'll be out looking for the spring C clip that popped off
the
front axle of my truck and vanished where a magnetic sweeper couldn't
find
it. Although it also didn't find the clip, at night the thermal imager
made
everything lying on the ground including a sample tarp grommet stand
out in
high contrast to the warmer earth. It may be in a snow bank that I'll
screen
tomorrow.
-----------------------------
It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally
let Jeezus clips get away like that.
Dad called 'em that too ... he also taught me that if possible put a plastic bag over the part so if it tries to escape it can't . Kinda hard
to do often when working on a vehicle .
I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't
get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way ,
looks like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that
money spent before MY bank crashes !
On 3/19/2023 1:39 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:----------------------
It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally
let Jeezus clips get away like that.
Dad called 'em that too ... he also taught me that if possible put a plastic bag over the part so if it tries to escape it can't . Kinda hard
to do often when working on a vehicle .
I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way , looks
like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that money spent
before MY bank crashes !
"Snag" wrote in message news:tv7qtu$35b8v$1@dont-email.me...
I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't
get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way ,
looks like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that
money spent before MY bank crashes !
Snag
---------------
I didn't expect it to align in the vise. On mine the base rotation
between RH and LH is about 30 degrees, not one or more quarter turns.
The simple fix is to clamp it to the mill table in an orientation that
gives you the grinding angles and then draw a line on the base parallel
to the table slots so you can repeat that positioning. If you want you
could attach it to a larger base that goes in the vise. You might have
to grind the back relief by hand, which is faster anyway.
"Snag" wrote in message news:tv8n63$3ck4n$1@dont-email.me...
On 3/19/2023 4:46 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
.....[try turning it]...
The vise isn't bolted down , I rotated the whole thing . Even used
one of my new angle plates to set it at 30° .
Snag
----------------------------
Without seeing / examining it I can only guess, so I assumed you made a mirror image of the correct geometry.
Can you find and measure the maximum collet holder tilt and mark its direction?
On mine it's tilted about 6 or 7 degrees, and rotated about 15 degrees clockwise from the center of the beveled end so that about 2 degrees of
the tilt dishes the cutting edges in toward the center and about 5
degrees of it is back relief. Those are rough visual estimates of mine because my vernier protractor doesn't fit against the angles.
https://www.penntoolco.com/precise-end-mill-grinding-fixture-5-c-collet-capacity-emf-100/
The Eagle Rock ones are shown from the perspective I've used. I took the
2 and 5 degree angles from the note, my fixture has the base bevel at 25 instead of 30 degrees.
Without seeing / examining it I can only guess, so I assumed you made a mirror image of the correct geometry.
"Snag" wrote in message news:tvb82f$3su9b$1@dont-email.me...
...
...
A friend in the drafting class was the son of an architect, and
determined to prove he was the best draftsman. I wouldn't let him get
off easily and thus learned a lot myself. I also learned how
manipulate someone's competitive and egotistic nature, and recognize
those tactics from sales people. https://www.teamimprovus.net/satisficer-maximiser-what-type-of-decision-maker-are-you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
...
...........
As the lab tech I was rarely asked my opinion until I had proven myself
as a source of innovation.
As the lab tech I was rarely asked my opinion until I had proven myself as
a source of innovation.
...
I wasn't good at writing reports because you have to write linearly
but I think in multiple dimensions (dementions?). ...
... I began posting here
for practice on readers who may criticize or fail to understand but
don't sign my paycheck. Thus the long rambling essays.
...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
...
I wasn't good at writing reports because you have to write linearly
but I think in multiple dimensions (dementions?). ...
Yes. Exactly.
The processing and the means of progress is a multidimensional fully
linked "space". Links are elastic, and they can rearrange on new
discoveries or errors identified and correct relations identied. But
it's the idea of every dynamically linked.
So rendering a text description is "challenging".
This is why you need to have a team of engineers and scientists whose
brief is to "run with the job". You are always finding your way
along, the significant guiding of the physical things happening
(eg. the bridge is now getting its deck) is in the minds of the team,
and anything written is some after-the-event summary with the key
concepts coming into perspective to convey benefitting from hindsight.
By the way - major alway present "force" - competitive pressure.
There will be other teams in other places trying to do the same
thing. So you have to be very efficient to be there first or at least
in the front runners. So it's a game, and is a fun one. Basically we
get paid for putting the endeavour up among the leaders where the
overall endeavour can be remunerative. In return for which we have
thinking time and a lot of fun.
My Doctorate - there was a fairly determinate way to get to the
outcome - but it would have taken millions of times more resources
than I had and someone would have got there first by another means.
Which I did by an "indeterminate path". I could see there were
"galloping grounds" - but also "hidden ground" where I had no idea at
the outset how I was going to cross it. Nothing looked physically
impossible (that would mean contravening a known Law of the Universe)
in my instinct, so I simply had to have faith that I would find my way through when I arrived at "valleys" as I came upon them and had to
cross.
... I began posting here
for practice on readers who may criticize or fail to understand but
don't sign my paycheck. Thus the long rambling essays.
...
Ha haaaa, brilliant "ploy".
Some of my articles on my website are a kind of diary.
That's why I don't care if the hard work takes me only to what those
who work in the field consider fairly much "level 101".
Here's an example http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/marine/221231_fhs/221231_froudehs_eg.html "Hydrodynamics, Froude number and a clever vessel design"
I realised there was something special about these vessel - compared
*only* to all that I had known = yachts, tugboats, etc.
Having got to the end of that article, I was in a position to
understand vessels of this type have been around for at least 30
years and are widely known in the marine world (the balance of all
positives and constraints gives them a narrow niche application I
myself had never encountered).
But for me - that's okay. Doing the article served my purpose
* it's my "diary entry"
* I learned along the path of writing it
For learning, this is 100% an exercise in learning http://weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220713_torreyc/220713_torrey_canyon_investig.html
"Investigate Torrey Canyon / Pollard Rock wreck circumstances"
Every question along the way was soliciting information - the most significant word-of-mouth.
I only contributed identifying what the tide was doing at about 0800
on the 18th of March 1967. Which all on my little owneo I found could
be had from oceanographic academic collections with tide data. That was
in my area of "leading" ability. I found the data, then knew how to
"throw around" that much data and extract selected graphs which make
sense to anyone. But that was enough to bring in all the guidance
which was 100% of how I progressed developing that article.
Changing tack - I suspect the war in Europe is straining our systems
and revealing their weaknesses.
I suspect that 40+years on from "moving into a post-industrial world"
what looked brilliant before has a significant part of the population
who instinctively "quack" responses and their minds have only the
sequential linearity of picking along rote rule sets. Nothing of the concurrent multidimensional thinking with all its power but its scary uncertainties and the complete unknowns.
That a bank (SVB) which specialising in being a portal for the money
flows in and out of innovation collapses due to the strains of a war
is "unpromising" (tactfully putting it).
Ha-haa - "wrong angle" - pontificating fantasies of "right and wrong",
"good vs. evil", etc., will "win the day". Oh nooooo!!!
Thanks for starting an interesting thought process Jim.
To Jim and all of you, best wishes,
Rich S
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yatj9is.fsf@void.com...
...
That a bank (SVB) which specialising in being a portal for the money
flows in and out of innovation collapses due to the strains of a war
is "unpromising" (tactfully putting it).
------------------------
I worked at a series of small companies that all failed for reasons
other than technical ability, typically it was crippling lawsuits from envious competitors. At the printer company a part of my job was
wowing investors with a display of our ability. When they arrived the
boss would ask for a business card which he gave to me, and I hastily digitized and cleaned up their logo and printed a stack of paper with
their name and logo in color as a letterhead. In 1985 that was enough
to get another quarter or half year of operating funding.
I drew several complete printer fonts in several sizes, regular, bold
and italic, and logos of many large corporations. I never would have
guessed that I'd someday be making a living as a digital graphic
artist. The computer workstation was a custom lashup based on an HP
1000 minicomputer, the inspiration for HAL in "2001".
https://www.tonergiant.co.uk/blog/2014/04/what-are-solid-ink-printers/
It omits the early development at Exxon Office Automation and Howtek
Corp, which was the Centronics engineers.
"You can’t print on photo paper / specialty papers."
You definitely could with the Howtek version. It printed (in reverse)
on clear acetate, paper towels, aluminum offset printing plates and
crudely on tee shirts. We had fun tinkering though the place wasn't
quite the engineers' playground as Segway.
After the place folded due to a lawsuit one of the engineers used the
molten plastic inkjet concept to develop 3D printing. Solid ink had
piled up deeply around the ink jet test station. It was too brittle to
make practical objects and we were too busy to pursue it but it gave
us ideas.
"Snag" wrote in message news:tves6i$kbdo$1@dont-email.me...
On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .
Snag
-------------------------
I don't understand everything I write and I've come to suspect that Bob
Dylan didn't either.
On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
......
I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .
Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> writes:
On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
......
I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .
I learned a lot here on NNTP news.
Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on sci.engr.joining.welding
but that group is more-or-less defunct.
One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
until he died recently essentially from old age.
Things I am puzzling over now I know I could have run to some
resolution in a few messages. But now I have to be "on my own two
feet" and find my way leading in a world where the answers are not
available and the only way is to rediscover knowledge.
rec.crafts.metalworking
had high 90's% off-topic posts then and I kept an eye on it but that
was mainly it.
Now
rec.crafts.metalworking
seems to have become a place for the remaining practitioners to group.
So I think you are in the right place.
Things I am puzzling over now I know I could have run to some
resolution in a few messages. But now I have to be "on my own two
feet" and find my way leading in a world where the answers are not
available and the only way is to rediscover knowledge.
You may find you are becoming the expert, and maybe should consider
being the Ernie in the group when it comes to welding.
I recently found myself in that position on a CNC group on
Facebook. I'm not knowledgeable enough to consider myself an expert,
but I saw some people posting wrong things about VFDs to somebody who
was asking some basic questions. I corrected some things I know from experience and past help from this group, and the next thing I knew a
couple people were directing secondary questions directly to me. For
me the key was to share would I knew for sure, tell when I didn't know
how the magic worked, and make sure I at least used the right
terminology.
...
Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
sci.engr.joining.welding
but that group is more-or-less defunct.
One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
until he died recently essentially from old age.
Was that Ernie Leimkuhler? I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
Facebook and web forums. He's on my friend's list, but I have not
seen any posts from him in a while. Most recent thing I see from him
is a post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.
...
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
sci.engr.joining.welding
but that group is more-or-less defunct.
One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
until he died recently essentially from old age.
Was that Ernie Leimkuhler? I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
Facebook and web forums. He's on my friend's list, but I have not
seen any posts from him in a while. Most recent thing I see from him
is a post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.
...
Ernie helped a lot yes.
The huge amount of guidance I got was from Randy Zimmerman.
I met him a couple of times in Winter 2008/2009. Flew into Vancouver
to see some family then there on the Island.
He was very very kind to me. I am glad his family is doing well,
because through Randy I owe them so much.
I was just starting Aluminum GMAW during the pandemic when he found he
was terminally ill. He helped me get a long way into that in a short
time.
He died just over a year ago.
This is where I am at on that topic of Ali-GMAW. http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_qual/221128_alimig/221128_ali_mig_qualctrl.html
"Ali MIG/GMAW welding with quality control"
I don't have anyone to ask, so I've "had to" design this project which
I believe would enable me to know how a competent conformant Ali-GMAW
weld is done.
The weld goes in with a smooth hiss.
Basically - you maximise your chances if you don't shake the weld-pool around. Neither by "messing with" the arc "Pulsing" nor by waving thewelding torch (gun) around "weaving".
Aluminium is corrosion-resistant, which makes "macro'ing" difficult.
On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
sci.engr.joining.welding
but that group is more-or-less defunct.
One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication >>>> until he died recently essentially from old age.
Was that Ernie Leimkuhler? I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
Facebook and web forums. He's on my friend's list, but I have not
seen any posts from him in a while. Most recent thing I see from him
is a post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.
...
Ernie helped a lot yes.
The huge amount of guidance I got was from Randy Zimmerman.
I met him a couple of times in Winter 2008/2009. Flew into Vancouver
to see some family then there on the Island.
He was very very kind to me. I am glad his family is doing well,
because through Randy I owe them so much.
I was just starting Aluminum GMAW during the pandemic when he found he
was terminally ill. He helped me get a long way into that in a short
time.
He died just over a year ago.
This is where I am at on that topic of Ali-GMAW.
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_qual/221128_alimig/221128_ali_mig_qualctrl.html
"Ali MIG/GMAW welding with quality control"
I don't have anyone to ask, so I've "had to" design this project which
I believe would enable me to know how a competent conformant Ali-GMAW
weld is done.
On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
The weld goes in with a smooth hiss.
I've been told its the sound of sizzling bacon.
Basically - you maximise your chances if you don't shake theweld-pool around. Neither by "messing with" the arc "Pulsing" nor by
waving the welding torch (gun) around "weaving".
I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
(3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch" welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of course.
Aluminium is corrosion-resistant, which makes "macro'ing" difficult.
Its my understanding that it is the aluminum oxide coating that forms
very quickly in room temperature air which is highly corrosion
resistant (to acids). I would expect that any test with an acid etch
would require mechanical cleaning immediately prior to exposure.
Just a side note here: I have boon told aluminum oxide, and more so anodized aluminum is very acid resistant, but may dissolve in bases.
I have done no research or testing. To me this is just hearsay, but
it might be worth a moments consideration.
There is a lot (almost all of it) in your paper that is beyond my
small sphere of welding knowledge, but I still rather enjoyed reading
it. Thank you for sharing.
I was thinking Ferric Chloride might make a good etchant as I have it
to hand and aluminium reacts quite actively with it at PCB etchant
strength so it would need to be diluted as a weld etchant. My
chemistry teacher in high school mentioned it's the same type of
reaction as thermite just just with Ferric Chloride instead of a
ferrous oxide. I first came across it when I dipped a pencil eraser in
the PCB etchant and it quickly dissolved the aluminium ferrule.
On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
...
On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
The weld goes in with a smooth hiss.
I've been told its the sound of sizzling bacon.
Basically - you maximise your chances if you don't shake the
weld-pool around. Neither by "messing with" the arc "Pulsing" nor
by waving the welding torch (gun) around "weaving".
I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
(3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
course.
Aluminium is corrosion-resistant, which makes "macro'ing" difficult.
...
...
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
Amphoteric
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvg8fo$rc56$1@dont-email.me...
Its my understanding that it is the aluminum oxide coating that forms
very quickly in room temperature air which is highly corrosion resistant
(to acids). I would expect that any test with an acid etch would
require mechanical cleaning immediately prior to exposure.
Just a side note here: I have boon told aluminum oxide, and more so anodized aluminum is very acid resistant, but may dissolve in bases. I
have done no research or testing. To me this is just hearsay, but it
might be worth a moments consideration.
Bob La Londe
----------------------------
Aluminum oxide is "amphoteric", meaning it reacts with both acids and
bases.
https://melscience.com/US-en/articles/aluminum-and-its-reaction-water/
"If a piece of the metal is put in hydrochloric acid, a slow reaction takes place, as initially the oxide film will be dissolved from its surface, but then the reaction speeds up."
Fizzing won't be seen until the bare metal has been exposed.
Atmospheric CO2 will slowly neutralize basic / alkali etchants into carbonates (baking soda) but acids remain dangerous.
I researched the effect of food acids in meat marinade on slow cooking vessels and ended up with a Pyrex pot and Inconel temperature probe,
though I can't prove a decent grade of stainless wouldn't have been as
good. The stainless in my Walmart kettles lightly rusts. I had to TIG a
rust pit leak on one of them.
I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
(3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
course.
You are rather expert...!
Amphoteric
Yes.
"Official" etchants sounded scary - quite concentrated acids including hydroflouric. No way.
But know Al is amphoteric, so tried the alkalis/bases route and "hit
lucky" with drain-cleaner. You can get it whenever and wherever you
need it, so haven't "refined" the method. You broadly know what the
macro etch is supposed to like - and expect to see something like that
if you run round the builder's merchant and source the drain-cleaner.
I researched the effect of food acids in meat marinade on slow cooking vessels and ended up with a Pyrex pot and Inconel temperature probe,
though I can't prove a decent grade of stainless wouldn't have been as
good. The stainless in my Walmart kettles lightly rusts. I had to TIG a
rust pit leak on one of them.
The paring knife I use most was a free sample from a peddler with a
temporary in-store kiosk. I acted the sympathetic listener and he spilled
his life history in electronics to me. That happens fairly often and it >surprises me how many people selling crafts or second-hand stuff bailed out >of high tech. They claim to value the independence and self reliance and >being outdoors. I tasted it one between-jobs summer, working a Renaissance >Faire, and admit its attraction though I went back into the lab at Mitre.
On 3/23/2023 1:09 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
(3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
course.
You are rather expert...!
Oh, I didn't say I was good at it.
I'd like to get better, and if I can't with the MIG welder I have I
guess I'll have to learn to TIG weld aluminum. I have some large
projects I "want" to do, but if I have to learn to use TIG and go slower
I will. Just means I might not finish them while I am still young
enough to use them.
I started reading a book some years back by a guy named Stephen F
Pollard about building aluminum boats. I was hoping for more in the
welding portions of the book, but there was not as much as I would like.
He basically repeated what this group and SEJW had told me in the
past. CLEAN & PREP & CLEAN SOME MORE. The other thing he emphasized
was a particular order of processes. Its not always practical of course depending on what you are welding on a boat, and if you are building
from scratch or doing repairs to a completed assembly. He said you
should always clean and prep, weld one side, then back grind, and weld
the other side. I have certainly seen (and owned) a few small (16-17ft (4.8m-5.2m)) welded aluminum boats that were built by commercial
builders. My best guess is that they were all pulse MIG welded from one side only. (They have a sort of stack of dimes look, but not as uniform
as a skilled TIG welder.) Some welds of course would be nearly
impossible to back grind and weld, but most they just welded from one
side. I have to assume Pollard was mostly building larger boats. Small trawlers, tugs, etc. The weld, back grind and back weld might make
sense on 1/4in (6.35mm) or thicker plate, but full penetration has never
been an issue for me with .080 to .125 inch (2mm to 3.2mm) these utility/fishing boats are made out of. The issue for me has always been
not totally annihilating the base material.
If I could get the welds to work out like Pollard suggests with the
thinner sheet that might be good for me because My projects would be
planing hulls, and being able to go back and grind the first side flat
would be ideal.
Pollards Book.
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilding-Aluminum-Complete-Guide-Amateur/dp/0071443185
Thrift Books: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/boatbuilding-with-aluminum_stephen-f-pollard/329799/?resultid=faabf6f3-33de-4ced-a715-5a71c043d887#isbn=0071443185
The other thing that sets me at a bit of a quandry to reconcile with
your paper is when welding thick aluminum to thin aluminum. I always
had to preheat the thicker piece, and I still had to concentrate on the
thick piece with a slightly weave or more of a quiver to tie in the
thinner piece. AGAIN, I am not saying I am good at it. This would be counter I think to the bit about not whipping or weaving. To just lay
down a smooth straight bead. I have observed a smooth straight FAST
bead tends to work best when welding two similar size pieces together.
I am absolutely not saying I am good about any of this or that my
thoughts come from a mind of greatness. I'm not even arguing with any
of your points. I am just trying to better understand how things work
so I can practice better technique.
Snag, sorry about hijacking your thread.
On 3/23/2023 1:09 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
(3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
course.
You are rather expert...!
Oh, I didn't say I was good at it.
I'd like to get better, and if I can't with the MIG welder I have I
guess I'll have to learn to TIG weld aluminum. I have some large
projects I "want" to do, but if I have to learn to use TIG and go
slower I will. Just means I might not finish them while I am still
young enough to use them.
I started reading a book some years back by a guy named Stephen F
Pollard about building aluminum boats. I was hoping for more in the
welding portions of the book, but there was not as much as I would
like. He basically repeated what this group and SEJW had told me in
the past. CLEAN & PREP & CLEAN SOME MORE. The other thing he
emphasized was a particular order of processes. Its not always
practical of course depending on what you are welding on a boat, and
if you are building from scratch or doing repairs to a completed
assembly. He said you should always clean and prep, weld one side,
then back grind, and weld the other side. I have certainly seen (and
owned) a few small (16-17ft (4.8m-5.2m)) welded aluminum boats that
were built by commercial builders. My best guess is that they were
all pulse MIG welded from one side only. (They have a sort of stack of
dimes look, but not as uniform as a skilled TIG welder.) Some welds
of course would be nearly impossible to back grind and weld, but most
they just welded from one side. I have to assume Pollard was mostly
building larger boats. Small trawlers, tugs, etc. The weld, back
grind and back weld might make sense on 1/4in (6.35mm) or thicker
plate, but full penetration has never been an issue for me with .080
to .125 inch (2mm to 3.2mm) these utility/fishing boats are made out
of. The issue for me has always been not totally annihilating the
base material.
If I could get the welds to work out like Pollard suggests with the
thinner sheet that might be good for me because My projects would be
planing hulls, and being able to go back and grind the first side flat
would be ideal.
Pollards Book.
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilding-Aluminum-Complete-Guide-Amateur/dp/0071443185
Thrift Books: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/boatbuilding-with-aluminum_stephen-f-pollard/329799/?resultid=faabf6f3-33de-4ced-a715-5a71c043d887#isbn=0071443185
The other thing that sets me at a bit of a quandry to reconcile with
your paper is when welding thick aluminum to thin aluminum. I always
had to preheat the thicker piece, and I still had to concentrate on
the thick piece with a slightly weave or more of a quiver to tie in
the thinner piece. AGAIN, I am not saying I am good at it. This
would be counter I think to the bit about not whipping or weaving. To
just lay down a smooth straight bead. I have observed a smooth
straight FAST bead tends to work best when welding two similar size
pieces together.
I am absolutely not saying I am good about any of this or that my
thoughts come from a mind of greatness. I'm not even arguing with any
of your points. I am just trying to better understand how things work
so I can practice better technique.
Snag, sorry about hijacking your thread.
--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not
a real machinist
Ali-GMAW
spray, pulse, etc
I've described this whimsical idea...
Could this be done?
Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
doing it?
On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
<snip>
I've described this whimsical idea...
Could this be done?
Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
doing it?
You know of the Ready Welder?
http://readywelder.com
On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
<snip>
I've described this whimsical idea...
Could this be done?
Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
doing it?
You know of the Ready Welder?
http://readywelder.com
Ali-GMAW
spray, pulse, etc
On 3/23/2023 1:41 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
<snip>
I've described this whimsical idea...
Could this be done?
Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
doing it?
You know of the Ready Welder?
http://readywelder.com
I was just thinking of that. I've never seen one in use.
http://readywelder.com
https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
...
On further reflection I think a Buck-Boost converter or adjustable
voltage regulator offer the most promise, though I don't have a source
for either. The converter could be close to the spool gun to bypass
resistive drop in the battery cables from the truck and give you
nearby control and monitoring of voltage and current, perhaps even
record it to compare to welding properties.
Perhaps they could help or know of someone else: https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product/buck-boost-dc-dc-converter/
This might be a marketable idea that a company would trade a prototype
for, in exchange for your expert testing and development help. It's
beyond me to design.
I've found several applications for separate raw power sources and
adjustable voltage/current regulators. A buck-boost converter added to
my DC freezer control regulates the DC power brick down to battery
float voltage and limits recharging current after a battery-powered
grid outage. A Schottky blocks backflow. It's a simple home brew DC
UPS.
...
On further reflection I think a Buck-Boost converter or adjustable
voltage regulator offer the most promise, though I don't have a source
for either. The converter could be close to the spool gun to bypass
resistive drop in the battery cables from the truck and give you
nearby control and monitoring of voltage and current, perhaps even
record it to compare to welding properties.
Perhaps they could help or know of someone else: https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product/buck-boost-dc-dc-converter/
This might be a marketable idea that a company would trade a prototype
for, in exchange for your expert testing and development help. It's
beyond me to design.
I've found several applications for separate raw power sources and
adjustable voltage/current regulators. A buck-boost converter added to
my DC freezer control regulates the DC power brick down to battery
float voltage and limits recharging current after a battery-powered
grid outage. A Schottky blocks backflow. It's a simple home brew DC
UPS.
On 3/23/2023 6:41 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 3/23/2023 1:41 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
<snip>
I've described this whimsical idea...
Could this be done?
Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
doing it?
You know of the Ready Welder?
http://readywelder.com
I was just thinking of that. I've never seen one in use.
We were at Palisades Lake near Idaho falls Idaho probably around
1962-3 , Uncle Bill's boat motor had a problem with the
starter/generator . A loose wire on the commutator threatened to ruin
our weekend of fishing . Dad improvised a carbon arc torch from a set of jumper cables and the carbons from a couple of D cells , remelted the
solder to reattach the wire and saved the day . The thing that really
stands out about that weekend though was the blueberry pancakes made
with wild berries we kids picked .
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...
Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:
https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
------------------------
I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or >regulate the battery voltage.
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...
Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:
https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
------------------------
I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or >regulate the battery voltage.
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvkpsu$1p2o2$1@dont-email.me...
On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 20:33:12 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...
Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:
https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
------------------------
I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or >>regulate the battery voltage.
Found a patent for it here:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US10946466B1/en
Patent was granted in 2021. Not in the mood to study it just now and it
looks like something in your area of expertise :)
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
-------------------------
Apparently it can rapidly pulse the current on/off to reduce its average >value but there's no indication it can reduce or boost the battery voltage.
Ali-GMAW
spray, pulse, etc
Okay, while everyone's here and interested...
How would I GMAW Ali from a lead-acid battery, like from a truck?
For "spray" the Voltage (and Amps) is "as flat as a billiard table".
So what a battery supplies should be ideal.
At about 200A to 250A and 25V to 26V.
The output isn't inherently DC any more, but it can be filtered to approximate DC as well as you can afford.
Buck-boost converters don't need to lose power in resistors, they are
the DC equivalent of a Variac. They convert incoming DC into pulsed AC
and then rectify it back to DC. The pulse's width determines its
energy content and the output voltage. It's a closed loop, active
circuitry measures the output voltage and varies the pulse width to
maintain the voltage at where you set it.
The operation is somewhat similar to a Hydraulic Ram, with energy
oscillating between velocity (current) and pressure (voltage), as in a pendulum. The inductors L1 and L2 create the electrical equivalent of inertia, like a car ignition coil that produces high voltage when the
points open.
It's difficult to explain in detail, what we call FM (freakin' magic)
. See if this helps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter
I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs
for switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may
be better suited to your high current. This one should at least get
you in the door and give you credibility. Knowing the words can help
even if you don't know their meaning, they may assume you do.
On 3/23/2023 12:47 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
Ali-GMAW
spray, pulse, etc
Okay, while everyone's here and interested...
...
Are you saying that it would be impractical if not impossible with
tens of thousands of mid range commercial fab shop machines that just
have a handful of fixed stops for setting voltage instead of a
continuous variable voltage control, because their control is not good
enough to hit the perfect voltage?
I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs
for switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may
be better suited to your high current.
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
On 3/23/2023 12:47 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
Ali-GMAW
spray, pulse, etc
Okay, while everyone's here and interested...
...
Are you saying that it would be impractical if not impossible with
tens of thousands of mid range commercial fab shop machines that just
have a handful of fixed stops for setting voltage instead of a
continuous variable voltage control, because their control is not good
enough to hit the perfect voltage?
For Ali-GMAW an adjustment of about 0.2V will make a perceptible
difference.
0.2V range on about 25V
The entire usable range for steel vertical up FCAW was 0.6V, when I
was in turkey in 2015 on the 3rd Bosphorus Bridge project. From those
who chose to keep the heat "low" and weave-in the bead shape to those
who chose to fill the fillet corner and leave it all to the flux/slag
to control the bead shape.
So yes you could has "taps" in some sort of resistance arrangement to
trim down a voltage, but it would need fine steps.
Copper-and-iron GMAW machines have a "coarse" tap knob and a "fine"
tap knob. The fine "splits the difference". It's hard to beat a *good* copper-and-iron machine. Yes its output will go up and down with the
line voltage. And other variables. But on the other hand the machine
with its taps going into the hard invariant wiring of the transformer
gives a very stable repeatable outcome.
The hypothesised device - if you are not familiar with commercial
welding with everything that you need in-order (you are the welder;
you demand - and they know every other welder would do identically) -
you need stable consistent voltage adjustment to much finer than
1/100th part.
I believe. From my experience. I tend to be out on my own on jobs.
So it's your choice whether you find what I say credible or now.
Hope this is helpful.
Rich S
I have always struggled (and sometimes succeeded) with MIG aluminum with
my machine even though it was sold as a MIG aluminum machine. It came
with two independent gas solenoids for two independent gas bottles, and
two independent guns. One is a regular MIG stinger, and the other is a >spool gun. You set the welder and pull the trigger on the gun you want
to use. Switching from one to the other is as easy as setting one gun
down and picking up the other. It has fixed taps for voltage, and I
have found most of the time I can get a little better results by running >recommended power settings and adjusting the wire speed. Usually faster >than recommended. Its a low/mid class fab shop commercial welder. A
Miller 212. It is not an industrial welder however.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:28:49 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>
I have always struggled (and sometimes succeeded) with MIG aluminum with
my machine even though it was sold as a MIG aluminum machine. It came
with two independent gas solenoids for two independent gas bottles, and
two independent guns. One is a regular MIG stinger, and the other is a
spool gun. You set the welder and pull the trigger on the gun you want
to use. Switching from one to the other is as easy as setting one gun
down and picking up the other. It has fixed taps for voltage, and I
have found most of the time I can get a little better results by running
recommended power settings and adjusting the wire speed. Usually faster
than recommended. Its a low/mid class fab shop commercial welder. A
Miller 212. It is not an industrial welder however.
That's a nice welder, looked up the manual for it👍 My voltage switch
only has 6 positions but I can swap a cable plug to High Range and get 6
more (12 total Voltage settings on Millermatic 200). Seems I recall
some overlap in the settings though. It has a better duty cycle than
yours but physically looks almost identical. Had a particular job in
mind when I bought it and sized it big enough to get 100% duty cycle
for the weld settings I wanted to run. And it did that just fine. A lot
of times the fan wouldn't even come on while welding. Kinda nice not
having to listen to a fan drone away...
Never got a spool gun for it though which was on my wish list. Had no particular need, but just-in-case.
Since picked up an old Solar, which is likely an old Century made buzz
box. Nowadays it's much easier to drag that one out, pick a rod for the
job and get it done ;-)
... I want you to understand I am NOT arguing with you or disputing
you. ...
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs9sjxmk.fsf@void.com...-----------------------------
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs
for switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may
be better suited to your high current.
Okaaayyyyy!!!
Ahhh, now you explain you are selling me the idea.
So with a battery which at that current is maybe supplying 24V, I
could boost up to 26V and very finely trim in the needed range from
24V to 26V...
Thanks for explaining.
I'll go back to that link.
Mega thanks.
Yes I should get over to Whaley Bridge.
It's less than 1/2hr by car.
The parts and labor may be at least as expensive as a line-powered
inverter welder of the same output. The buck-boost converters I have
for moving charge between batteries do what you ask in principle but
at far lower current levels. Like birds they may not scale up very
much larger.
https://www.droking.com/Power-supply-converter-module-Dc-dc-buck-boost-converter
... I want you to understand I am NOT arguing with you or disputing
you. ...
That thought never as much as crossed my mind.
I took it as genuinely soliciting insight the entire time.
You are descibing quite a lot of experience of your own which you
already have, it needs to be said...
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfdr5dy1.fsf@void.com...
...
... and researching who to vote for tomorrow.
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfdr5dy1.fsf@void.com...
...
... and researching who to vote for tomorrow.
I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's.
inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)
Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)
I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
(all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
"fly-by-wire" electronics?)
Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably useI've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)
(all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
"fly-by-wire" electronics?)
Good inverters can run 6010's open-arc but cannot cope with pushing
the rod into the joint - as you might want to do "keyholing the root"
- as I have experienced. I hear some $thousands heavy-duty inverters
can...
I've had a tranformer-rectifier setup which would "keyhole" perfectly
with 6010. But that isn't the common experience either??
AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
No arc-blow, being AC.
But 6013's only.
I wish doing barges someone would get a big transformer and some big
7028's which will burn AC and find how that works. Because then you
can be arc'ing-up minutes from the start of your shift and you don't
have to stop for wind and rain. You'd think they didn't have a care
in the world and money rained down on them like the physical rain from
the skys the way I've experienced the goings-on.
Regards,
AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
No arc-blow, being AC.
But 6013's only.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:34:29 +0100
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
<snip>
AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
No arc-blow, being AC.
But 6013's only.
Odd numbers are AC rods (6011, 6013...). Even numbers are DC (6010,
7018...) per spec. Your mileage will vary if you run them else wise.
I'd say the most common AC rod used by us amateurs over here is 6011 in
1/8 inch, also known as Farmer Rod.
A lot of the Pro's avoid 6013 because it's hard to see the puddle and
prone to worm holes. Made me feel a lot better when I heard that
because I'd always had trouble seeing the puddle. Thought it was just
"me" and I sucked...
Now 7018 had always been a DC only rod but I've noticed in more recent
years some manufactures have added AC settings for it too.
studied it much... I don't know if it still has the same low hydrogen
specs or the manufactures know it sells well and didn't want to miss
out selling to us only AC machine guys.
I've used 6011 x 1/16 & 1/8", 6013 x 1/8" and an odd Forney "Noma-Cast"x 1/8" on a cast iron repair. Noma is orders of magnitude cheaper to buy
than nickle rod. It was a freebie job for a good neighbor and held way
better than expected.
If you have an Instagram account go lookup @icweld. Amazing 7018 & arc-gouging repairs on all sorts of heavy equipment. Try this without Instagram:
https://imginn.com/icweld/
I quit keeping up with him (and several others) a couple years ago after Facebook took over and cutoff access to non-users. This was where
(Instagram) a lot of GOOD welders hung out and swapped stories/helped
each other out...
On 3/27/2023 12:02 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:34:29 +0100
Now 7018 had always been a DC only rod but I've noticed in more recent
years some manufactures have added AC settings for it too.
I ran it on AC a long time ago because it ran decent. One of the weld >channels has said its always been AC/DC rod. Could have been Welding
Tips & Tricks or Weld.com. I watch them both when I have my morning
coffee. I had a buddy tell me many years ago it was DC only when we
were working on a trailer (converting from boat to flatbed) to go get a >scissor lift in Denver I had purchased on-line. Anyway, he lectured me >about it, so I went and got the box. It said E7018 and listed AC and
DC. Later I noticed some boxed labeled 7018AC. I asked around about
what the difference was. The most knowledgeable welding people I knew
at the time said, "the label." I sold that scissor lift a few years
ago, but I still have the trailer. It hasn't broken yet.
x 1/8" on a cast iron repair. Noma is orders of magnitude cheaper to buy
than nickle rod.
I'll have to check that out. I have a small package of nickle 55 I
bought when a local store was dumping all of one brand to go with
another brand. I guard it like its gold. Might be nice to have another >option... Well stainless works too, but I doubt its approved for
anything. LOL.
180A Pickhill oil cooled welder
...
A lot of the Pro's avoid 6013 because it's hard to see the puddle ...
... Made me feel a lot better when I heard that
because I'd always had trouble seeing the puddle. Thought it was just
"me" and I sucked...
...
180A Pickhill oil cooled welderI've never met an oil-cooled stick welder which wasn't excellent.
I don't know the Max-Arc rectifier. One I used was an air-cooled
contraption - historic and by Murex.
...
... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
things, maybe one day.
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lylejinofe.fsf@void.com...
I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
(all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
"fly-by-wire" electronics?)
------------------
I measured the output characteristic of my 50A buzz box transformer
after it had been rectified and filtered to DC. Without a load it is
~58VDC, the peak value of the AC sine wave. As the output current
increases the voltage decreases to about 32V at 25A, as though it has
around 1 Ohm in series, though it's a combination of wire winding and
my added rectifier and circuit resistance plus intentionally uncoupled inductance in the transformer winding, called impedance when it isn't
pure E=IR resistance. The maximum current into a short circuit or fuse/breaker being tested is at least 70A. This impedance is always
present without a time delay between corrections, like in an inverter.
The stick welding current isn't "constant", as it increases it pulls
down the voltage, to zero if the rod sticks, then the voltage drop is
all in the transformer. The indicated design value is 22V across a
50A arc, or about half an Ohm of series impedance in the transformer.
https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/welding-and-cutting-resource-center/process-and-theory/constant-current-vs-constant-voltage-output
Hope this helps, jsw
I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when using the >rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed things, maybe one >day.
...
... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
things, maybe one day.
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly355pjniz.fsf@void.com...
David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:
...
... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
things, maybe one day.
Interesting to investigate, but the good question is always "does it
weld well?"
---------------------
Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't
measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my
digital scope won't sample long enough. These require additional user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the voltage and current signals.
https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't
measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my
digital scope won't sample long enough. These require additional user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the voltage and current signals.
https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvv5ud$3qv0u$1@dont-email.me...
On 3/28/2023 5:14 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't
measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my
digital scope won't sample long enough. These require additional
user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the voltage and
current signals.
https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
Years ago I used to use a relatively cheap DVOM with a serial port
output to prove to customers their power was "unclean." I'd just hook
it to the circuit, tie the serial port to a laptop computer with a
serial communications terminal program running, and leave it overnight.
12-16 hrs was no big deal on my old laptop computers. Sample time and serial port speed is of course an issue as you indicated, but I don't
see why the same thing couldn't be done with a scope that has a data output. I'll have to go look to see if my cheap 2 channel digital scope
has a communication port. (I've only ever used it for tuning servo
drives).
{{{ A DSO may be a bit much to suggest to someone who doesn't already
know electricity and how to use them. I don't think my Tenma DSO outputs continuously in real time, only to internal files.
I do most of my battery charge / discharge and temperature data logging
with TP4000ZC serial comm DMMs and a laptop. The limitation is that it
logs no faster than one reading per second, fine for batteries or solar
but not welding where the arc conditions change too fast. The advantage
is the optically isolated channels that avoid ground loops. }}}
Upon a moments thought I recall that there are scopes with little more
than an interface that use a computer for the display and computational capability. I am sure you could do data logging with something like
that. When last I looked those units were even cheaper than my import 2 channel scope.
{{{ Common ground. I may need to measure voltage and current at
different locations. Collecting accurate data from several places on a prototype electric vehicle proved tricky. The datalogger was an
industrial unit with differential inputs, which helped. It programmed in
some arcane proprietary language, which didn't. }}}
I am aware that you used the word "Fluke." I understand that it might
be beneath notice to consider a "cheap" tool, but there are ways to get
most jobs done. I've never owned a Fluke meter.
{{{ I have a very old Fluke 8800A ($25) that still reads a voltage
standard to the last digit. https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fluke_digital_multimeter_8800a.html
My own AC/DC current probe is a "Hantek", good enough if you aren't
fussy. In product R&D for lawyer-proofing we always had to take data
with equipment that was in traceable calibration, which rules out the
hobby stuff, and makes obsolete lab gear quite affordable. I have
"broken" meters that I've fixed by reseating the ICs in their sockets. }}}
P.S. Upon another moments thought I recall I actually bought that 2
channel scope (4 channels would have been ideal, but was out of my
budget) to develop an idea I had for a medical heart monitor and
training device. I did not work on it full time, and sadly Hewlett
Packard came out with something a year or so later that performed a
nearly identical function. I guess as soon as I had the idea I should
have written it up and applied for at least a provisional patent. I
still have boxes of electronic components on the shelf (some unopened)
left over from that project idea. Its just that the only thing I
actually used the scope for was tuning servo drives.
{{{ I've had some involvement with defibrillators and other medical equipment. Liability and the heavy hand of the government are too much
for me. }}}
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfdr5dy1.fsf@void.com...
The other thing you could do is have three car batteries in series and
only have to "buck".
There you efficiently trade voltage for more current?
-------------------------
That is a very good idea, you could have 24V from the standard truck electrical system with a high current alternator, and an isolated 24V
to 12V converter to keep the third battery charged. The batteries
could be allowed to droop while welding without affecting the 26V
output as long as the alternator and converter can keep up with the
duty cycle, which I think would have to be low to keep the cost down, otherwise there may be little or no advantage over a portable
engine-powered welder.
https://www.powerstream.com/dcdc-extreme-2412.htm
"These converters are fully isolated, so will work in positive ground
or negative ground applications."
">1500 volts isolation from case to any terminal, >1500 Volts
isolation input to output."
So there shouldn't be a problem with connecting the negative side of
the output to the positive side of the input, to boost 24V to
36V. That would be a short circuit if the output isn't isolated.
I haven't given up on the 24V 400A alternator with adjustable
regulator but right now I'm busy doing my taxes and researching who to
vote for tomorrow.
-jsw
On 3/28/2023 5:14 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly355pjniz.fsf@void.com...
David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:
...
... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
things, maybe one day.
Interesting to investigate, but the good question is always "does it
weld well?"
---------------------
Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger
that doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version
can't measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time,
and my digital scope won't sample long enough. These require
additional user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the
voltage and current signals.
https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
Years ago I used to use a relatively cheap DVOM with a serial port
output to prove to customers their power was "unclean." I'd just hook
it to the circuit, tie the serial port to a laptop computer with a
serial communications terminal program running, and leave it
overnight. 12-16 hrs was no big deal on my old laptop computers.
Sample time and serial port speed is of course an issue as you
indicated, but I don't see why the same thing couldn't be done with a
scope that has a data output. I'll have to go look to see if my cheap
2 channel digital scope has a communication port. (I've only ever
used it for tuning servo drives).
Upon a moments thought I recall that there are scopes with little more
than an interface that use a computer for the display and
computational capability. I am sure you could do data logging with
something like that. When last I looked those units were even cheaper
than my import 2 channel scope.
I am aware that you used the word "Fluke." I understand that it might
be beneath notice to consider a "cheap" tool, but there are ways to
get most jobs done. I've never owned a Fluke meter.
P.S. Upon another moments thought I recall I actually bought that 2
channel scope (4 channels would have been ideal, but was out of my
budget) to develop an idea I had for a medical heart monitor and
training device. I did not work on it full time, and sadly Hewlett
Packard came out with something a year or so later that performed a
nearly identical function. I guess as soon as I had the idea I should
have written it up and applied for at least a provisional patent. I
still have boxes of electronic components on the shelf (some unopened)
left over from that project idea. Its just that the only thing I
actually used the scope for was tuning servo drives.
--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not
a real machinist
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly355ogf7a.fsf@void.com...
I got in touch with Kuranda in Whaley Bridge.
Got Brett. Engaged. But message - no way.
He said you'd need a battery about the size of what's used in a
milk-float
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float
{{{ Here a typical hobby source is forklift or golf cart batteries
that are too far gone to last all day. }}}
...
I was lead astray because someone quoted as if fact that welders can
use a couple of car batteries to weld with gasless FCAW.
That cannot be?
I was "taken in" by that.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 484 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 53:17:35 |
| Calls: | 9,628 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 13,695 |
| Messages: | 6,159,670 |
| Posted today: | 1 |