I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a
Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . The owner's
son got a little too heavy handed on the throttle and lost control ,
ended up in the woods and partially wrapped around a tree . Bent the
axle flange and cracked the weld where they cut a piece out of the axle .
So I've got the replacement cut down and almost ready to weld back
together . I was going to MIG it with ER70S6 , but I'm wondering if I
should TIG it with some ER309 or 308 . It's I think a carbon steel , it
sparks orange with short forks - and it's hard . I started out with
carbide cutters but it was pushing the axle out of alignment instead of
cutting . Since axles apparently aren't exactly straight (!!) I decided
to turn a couple of reference bands so I can check runout and have a
concentric band to mount the steady rest , ended up using my Dremel as a toolpost grinder using reinforced cutoff discs . That worked out well .
So now I need to decide which process and filler I need to use to glue
this thing back into one piece .
--
Snag
"They may take our lives but
they'll never take our freedom."
William Wallace

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On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:16:30 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a
Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . The owner's
son got a little too heavy handed on the throttle and lost control ,
ended up in the woods and partially wrapped around a tree . Bent the
axle flange and cracked the weld where they cut a piece out of the axle .
So I've got the replacement cut down and almost ready to weld back
together . I was going to MIG it with ER70S6 , but I'm wondering if I
should TIG it with some ER309 or 308 . It's I think a carbon steel , it >sparks orange with short forks - and it's hard . I started out with
carbide cutters but it was pushing the axle out of alignment instead of >cutting . Since axles apparently aren't exactly straight (!!) I decided
to turn a couple of reference bands so I can check runout and have a >concentric band to mount the steady rest , ended up using my Dremel as a >toolpost grinder using reinforced cutoff discs . That worked out well .
So now I need to decide which process and filler I need to use to glue
this thing back into one piece .

1039 steel of flange mount bearings, 1050 if a c clip axle.
1050 is NOT easy to weld and should be pre and post heat treated.
1039 is a LOT easier.

My recommendation is counter bore both ends and insert a "pin" in both
ends, chamfer the outer diameters, press the axle back together then
weld together with E6013 low hydrogen rod with an arc voltage of about
30 volts - 110 amps for 5/32 rod.
60000 is plenty strong for the "light duty" this axle will be
subjected to - particularly with the "splice" close to the middle of
the axle.
I would do this with my DC "buzz-box"

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On 4/10/2024 10:35 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:16:30 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a
Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . The owner's
son got a little too heavy handed on the throttle and lost control ,
ended up in the woods and partially wrapped around a tree . Bent the
axle flange and cracked the weld where they cut a piece out of the axle .
So I've got the replacement cut down and almost ready to weld back
together . I was going to MIG it with ER70S6 , but I'm wondering if I
should TIG it with some ER309 or 308 . It's I think a carbon steel , it
sparks orange with short forks - and it's hard . I started out with
carbide cutters but it was pushing the axle out of alignment instead of
cutting . Since axles apparently aren't exactly straight (!!) I decided
to turn a couple of reference bands so I can check runout and have a
concentric band to mount the steady rest , ended up using my Dremel as a
toolpost grinder using reinforced cutoff discs . That worked out well .
So now I need to decide which process and filler I need to use to glue
this thing back into one piece .

1039 steel of flange mount bearings, 1050 if a c clip axle.
1050 is NOT easy to weld and should be pre and post heat treated.
1039 is a LOT easier.

My recommendation is counter bore both ends and insert a "pin" in both
ends,

I machined a .3125d x .250" stub into the splined end , and a
matching recess in the flange end .


chamfer the outer diameters,

both outer diameters are ground at a 30° for a 60° included angle from
~ 1/2" diameter .


press the axle back together then

weld together with E6013 low hydrogen rod with an arc voltage of about
30 volts - 110 amps for 5/32 rod.

I don't think 6013 is considered a low hydrogen rod ... 7018 is and I
have an unopened package . However , ER70S6 MIG wire is definitely low
hydrogen , and since I use CO2 as a shield gas , might actually match
the base metal composition better . But then TIG with 309L is considered
pretty much universal so ...

60000 is plenty strong for the "light duty" this axle will be
subjected to - particularly with the "splice" close to the middle of
the axle.
I would do this with my DC "buzz-box"

The splice is about an inch from the center . My TIG welder can also
do arc DC , but I've never tried it . If a project needed arc welding
I've always used my Lincoln tombstone AC welder .
--
Snag
"They may take our lives but
they'll never take our freedom."
William Wallace

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Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> writes:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:16:30 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a >>Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . The owner's
son got a little too heavy handed on the throttle and lost control ,
ended up in the woods and partially wrapped around a tree . Bent the
axle flange and cracked the weld where they cut a piece out of the axle .
So I've got the replacement cut down and almost ready to weld back >>together . I was going to MIG it with ER70S6 , but I'm wondering if I >>should TIG it with some ER309 or 308 . It's I think a carbon steel , it >>sparks orange with short forks - and it's hard . I started out with
carbide cutters but it was pushing the axle out of alignment instead of >>cutting . Since axles apparently aren't exactly straight (!!) I decided
to turn a couple of reference bands so I can check runout and have a >>concentric band to mount the steady rest , ended up using my Dremel as a >>toolpost grinder using reinforced cutoff discs . That worked out well .
So now I need to decide which process and filler I need to use to glue
this thing back into one piece .

1039 steel of flange mount bearings, 1050 if a c clip axle.
1050 is NOT easy to weld and should be pre and post heat treated.
1039 is a LOT easier.

My recommendation is counter bore both ends and insert a "pin" in both
ends, chamfer the outer diameters, press the axle back together then
weld together with E6013 low hydrogen rod with an arc voltage of about
30 volts - 110 amps for 5/32 rod.
60000 is plenty strong for the "light duty" this axle will be
subjected to - particularly with the "splice" close to the middle of
the axle.
I would do this with my DC "buzz-box"

For what it's worth - agree with Snag on weld consumable types.
6013 stick is quite high hydrogen - has to be as only source of
shielding gas is the moisture in the rod.

7018 (CaCO3 based flux) is the "stick rod" which can be low hydrogen.
If baked properly. Only if baked properly...
7018 needs DC - Direct Current Electrode Positive
Reason can be backed to low hydrogen:
* flux can take the bake
* will dry at heat
* CO2 from dissociation of CaCO3 to CaO (powerful flux) and CO2 (becomes
gas shield) is metallurgically why can be dry.
That CO2 is not a lot.
My reckoning is only use 7018 if have plenty of space to arc-up ahead of
the weld - which you will progress over to burn/melt away the arc-start
region - and only if you have a good long prep. over which to burn the
entire rod no stopping and restarting.
You can do that on an axle?

Snag,
I'm sure you are much more practical that me. You will be knowing which welding process / method you are going with - for many reasons which
will be in your experience

I agree about preheat.
Hydrogen cracking isn't going to happen at 100degC or higher. Hold that temperature after welding to speed-up hydrogen dissipating away and your
weld will be clear of hydrogen issues.

Best wishes, Rich S

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On 4/11/2024 5:36 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Snag"  wrote in message news:uv76kg$18ic3$1@dont-email.me...

  I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a
Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . ... ------------------------
Maybe some help, not a DIY solution:
https://www.markwilliams.com/aerp1.html

A company that cuts, resplines and heat treats "Alloy Axles" might be
useful.

Interesting piece . I think this axle is going to see a lot less
torque than a drag racer ... I would rather have re-splined the axle ,
but this is how the guy wanted it done . Right now I'm considering ways
to rotate the axle while I lay a bead , uniformity is going to be the
key to ending up with a straight axle . I have a 4 RPM gear motor that I
think I can attach to the outboard end of the lathe spindle that might
work , or possibly use a battery drill attached to the countershaft .
The drill would give me speed control options ...
--
Snag
"They may take our lives but
they'll never take our freedom."
William Wallace

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On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 07:24:26 -0500
Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>

Right now I'm considering ways
to rotate the axle while I lay a bead , uniformity is going to be the
key to ending up with a straight axle . I have a 4 RPM gear motor that I >think I can attach to the outboard end of the lathe spindle that might
work , or possibly use a battery drill attached to the countershaft .
The drill would give me speed control options ...

I used to do some production work that called for turning while
welding. Using MIG I was able to turn the items by hand. It's really
easy to speed up, slow down, stop... whereas doing this with a motor
isn't quite so intuitive🤷

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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On 11/04/2024 13:38, Leon Fisk wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 07:24:26 -0500
Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>

Right now I'm considering ways
to rotate the axle while I lay a bead , uniformity is going to be the
key to ending up with a straight axle . I have a 4 RPM gear motor that I
think I can attach to the outboard end of the lathe spindle that might
work , or possibly use a battery drill attached to the countershaft .
The drill would give me speed control options ...

I used to do some production work that called for turning while
welding. Using MIG I was able to turn the items by hand. It's really
easy to speed up, slow down, stop... whereas doing this with a motor
isn't quite so intuitive🤷

I'd 2nd turning it by hand, it's something I've done on a number of
occasions and it works well. When I've done it with a MIG I only have to concentrate on turning the piece, pulling the trigger doesn't require
much thought, the result look like it was automated, it's something I
make a couple of dozen at a time so the MIG torch is clamped in position
and the part mounted on a simple jig for rotation with a hand crank.
Stick welding was a bit more challenging as having to concentrate on
turning with one hand and welding with the other but the results turned
out well, if I had more than one to do I expect I would get better with
each one.

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On 4/11/2024 7:38 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 07:24:26 -0500
Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>

Right now I'm considering ways
to rotate the axle while I lay a bead , uniformity is going to be the
key to ending up with a straight axle . I have a 4 RPM gear motor that I
think I can attach to the outboard end of the lathe spindle that might
work , or possibly use a battery drill attached to the countershaft .
The drill would give me speed control options ...

I used to do some production work that called for turning while
welding. Using MIG I was able to turn the items by hand. It's really
easy to speed up, slow down, stop... whereas doing this with a motor
isn't quite so intuitive🤷

Good point . I'm also considering attaching the MIG gun to the tool
post and turning the lathe spindle with a crank handle ... that will
give me better control of arc length and rotation speed .
--
Snag
"They may take our lives but
they'll never take our freedom."
William Wallace

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 08:14:13 -0500
Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>

I'm also considering attaching the MIG gun to the tool
post and turning the lathe spindle with a crank handle ... that will
give me better control of arc length and rotation speed .

For me at least... it isn't easy to keep good shielding gas coverage on
round objects like an axle. It wants to sink and flow around the area
needing coverage. If your settings are low, allowing the weld to
cool rapidly it isn't so bad. If your settings (MIG) are high and the
weld cools slowly good shield coverage can suffer.

I'd be tempted to make a small box with a slot for the axle to fit
through. The box will fill with shield gas and spill out over the top
and slot. With these design characteristics in mind make it such that
the weld area is within the pooled shield gas and you'll have a lot
better shielding gas coverage🤷

I'd likely clamp a bar or some sort of support in the area to rest my wrist/arm/gun on. This would allow you to still make small adjustments
to the weld pool area...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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On 4/11/2024 11:35 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Snag"  wrote in message news:uv8tt4$1o8rc$1@dont-email.me...

I've used a foil enclosure before to help keep shield gas where it's
needed ... the axle is currently set up in the lathe with a steady rest
and the tailstock maintaining alignment . I want to keep it fixtured
like this while I weld .
Snag
------------------------
Yesterday I had a similar problem, to press a small diameter countersink
into the drilled end of a 5/16" rod, to countersink close to an
obstruction on the new sawmill blade guides.

The lathe wasn't enough to press it in so I used a vee block for
alignment in the milling vise. I think you could make a similar fixture
from angle iron, a long piece for alignment with two shorter pieces
separated by a gap for the weld bead. U bolts could loosely hold top
clamping stock. The angle would help contain the gas and the lathe
wouldn't be damaged by spatter or current through the bearings.

I've been (trying to) keep the lathe covered with old towels . I got
it welded up , there's about .005" runout , which considering how
not-straight the axle was to begin with isn't bad . More than I wanted ,
but close enough .
--
Snag
"They may take our lives but
they'll never take our freedom."
William Wallace

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Point you have probably thought of...
The axle could be upright while welding - so doing a "2G" / "PC" rotated
weld. Rotating slowly.

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On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 23:15:07 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

On 4/10/2024 10:35 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:16:30 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a
Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . The owner's
son got a little too heavy handed on the throttle and lost control ,
ended up in the woods and partially wrapped around a tree . Bent the
axle flange and cracked the weld where they cut a piece out of the axle . >>> So I've got the replacement cut down and almost ready to weld back
together . I was going to MIG it with ER70S6 , but I'm wondering if I
should TIG it with some ER309 or 308 . It's I think a carbon steel , it
sparks orange with short forks - and it's hard . I started out with
carbide cutters but it was pushing the axle out of alignment instead of
cutting . Since axles apparently aren't exactly straight (!!) I decided
to turn a couple of reference bands so I can check runout and have a
concentric band to mount the steady rest , ended up using my Dremel as a >>> toolpost grinder using reinforced cutoff discs . That worked out well .
So now I need to decide which process and filler I need to use to glue
this thing back into one piece .

1039 steel of flange mount bearings, 1050 if a c clip axle.
1050 is NOT easy to weld and should be pre and post heat treated.
1039 is a LOT easier.

My recommendation is counter bore both ends and insert a "pin" in both
ends,

I machined a .3125d x .250" stub into the splined end , and a
matching recess in the flange end .

chamfer the outer diameters,

both outer diameters are ground at a 30° for a 60° included angle from
~ 1/2" diameter .

press the axle back together then

weld together with E6013 low hydrogen rod with an arc voltage of about
30 volts - 110 amps for 5/32 rod.

I don't think 6013 is considered a low hydrogen rod ... 7018 is and I
have an unopened package . However , ER70S6 MIG wire is definitely low >hydrogen , and since I use CO2 as a shield gas , might actually match
the base metal composition better . But then TIG with 309L is considered >pretty much universal so ...

60000 is plenty strong for the "light duty" this axle will be
subjected to - particularly with the "splice" close to the middle of
the axle.
I would do this with my DC "buzz-box"

The splice is about an inch from the center . My TIG welder can also
do arc DC , but I've never tried it . If a project needed arc welding
I've always used my Lincoln tombstone AC welder .

Can't beat the Lincoln AC/DC box for general purpose welding. (the
only "arc" welder I own) For fussy stuff I have a friend TIG it or I
use the Henrob. Should have said 6018 for low hydrogen but a
perfectly dry 6013 ALMOST meets low hydrogen definition (and a damp
6018 also ALMOST meets spec -- - )

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On 4/10/2024 4:16 PM, Snag wrote:

  I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike . The original axle assembly came from IIRC a
Ford Pinto (or Maverick maybe) , modified for the trike . The owner's
son got a little too heavy handed on the throttle and lost control ,
ended up in the woods and partially wrapped around a tree . Bent the
axle flange and cracked the weld where they cut a piece out of the axle .
  So I've got the replacement cut down and almost ready to weld back together . I was going to MIG it with ER70S6 , but I'm wondering if I
should TIG it with some ER309 or 308 . It's I think a carbon steel , it sparks orange with short forks - and it's hard . I started out with
carbide cutters but it was pushing the axle out of alignment instead of cutting . Since axles apparently aren't exactly straight (!!) I decided
to turn a couple of reference bands so I can check runout and have a concentric band to mount the steady rest , ended up using my Dremel as a toolpost grinder using reinforced cutoff discs . That worked out well .
So now I need to decide which process and filler I need to use to glue
this thing back into one piece .

Don't tell me you are going to piss off every wannabee Cha Cha Muldowney
by destroying a Ford 9 inch rear end.

I think "most" full size vehicle axles are medium to medium hard steel.
Maybe around .6 (+/-). If its to hard/high it will snap or shatter, but
its hardenable enough I've watched guys make knives out of them on Forge
and Fire. I know we have used old axles as tent stakes when putting up
event shelters. They will take a sledge hammer blow without shattering.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

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On 4/12/2024 2:06 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

On 4/10/2024 4:16 PM, Snag wrote:

   I'm shortening an axle to replace a damaged one in a one-off Gold
Wing powered FrankenTrike .

Don't tell me you are going to piss off every wannabee Cha Cha Muldowney
by destroying a Ford 9 inch rear end.

I think "most" full size vehicle axles are medium to medium hard steel.
Maybe around .6 (+/-).  If its to hard/high it will snap or shatter, but
its hardenable enough I've watched guys make knives out of them on Forge
and Fire.  I know we have used old axles as tent stakes when putting up event shelters.  They will take a sledge hammer blow without shattering.

Nah , I think he said it was a Pinto axle . And it was about knife
hard , could mark it with a good file with some pressure . He picked it
up yesterday , pretty sure he's got it installed by now . Turned out the
best way I have to cut it was with my Dremel as a tool post grinder
using reinforced cutting discs . Parted it with an angle grinder with a
cutting disc too .
Now if someone ever asks ... why yes , yes I have cut down an axle !
--
Snag
"They may take our lives but
they'll never take our freedom."
William Wallace

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