I've got several machines where I do use a vise. I don't use keys on
the bottom of any of them. I have in the past, but my experience was
unless I pulled the keys and machined them they didn't just position the
vise accurately enough I didn't have to indicate it in anyway.
On 2/11/2022 11:20 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
I've got several machines where I do use a vise. I don't use keys on<snip>
the bottom of any of them. I have in the past, but my experience was
unless I pulled the keys and machined them they didn't just position
the vise accurately enough I didn't have to indicate it in anyway.
I don't use keys either , and for the same reasons you don't . How
close to dead on do you shoot for ? I try to get under a thousandth in 5 inches , and often get pretty close to dead on . Not that I do work that precise , I'm just anal - I'm the same with dialing in on the 4 jaw
lathe chuck . I think my vise is a Kurt clone , not sure . But the
swivel base that came with it came off right quick because it was clunky
and a pain in the ass besides taking part of the vertical work envelope .
On 11/02/2022 17:20, Bob La Londe wrote:
I've got several machines where I do use a vise. I don't use keys onI use a Gerardi 150mm modular vice on my manual BP and I'll be keeping
the bottom of any of them. I have in the past, but my experience was
unless I pulled the keys and machined them they didn't just position
the vise accurately enough I didn't have to indicate it in anyway.
People in this group encouraged me to learn to indicate a vise, and
that it wouldn't be that hard with some practice. "Don't be afraid to
take the vise off. Every time you put it back on it will be easier."
They were right. I still have some anxiety about placing a vise on
the table and indicating it in. I've got two machines where I use a
pair of vises dialed in together. That's a little more tedious but not
horrible. A couple minutes with a brass hammer and an indicator at
worst. If I am having a tough time it can take me five-ten minutes
dial in two vises together. Usually not. If using soft jaws I'll
still skim cut them so the average is consistent across the entire range.
Once in a while I slide a vise on the table, and indicate it so close
I actually find myself moving it off alignment, because I can't
believe it slid on so close the first try. Not all the time, but
often enough that I no longer need to go on a social media group to
share my excitement about it. Oh, I still get excited about it. I
just don't need to share it every time it happens now.
I do smile when somebody else posts about it for their first time. I
feel good for them. I don't make a big deal about it but I don't shit
on their parade either. I am happy for them. The first time it
happens it really is a big deal. Anytime anybody accomplishes
something I try to be happy that they have improved their skills. Not
sneer down my nose that I have been able to do that for years.
The one that really annoys me though is this guy. "Oh, I have keys on
my vise and every time I put it on the table its accurate within 5
thousandths." That last five thousandths is usually the most work to
dial in, and five thousandths over the length of the average vise is
just not that good. He isn't doing anybody any favors in my opinion
and his bragging about his short cut doesn't make sense to me. I
think the keys are costing him time really. If he just eyeballed it on
the table, put an indicator on it, and used the tap and travel method
he could hit better than 5 thou just as quick. That's not even why I
don't use keys though.
I feel like keys (on a vise) limit my ability to make maximum use of
my machine or my vise. Basically I can only place the vise in 3
positions. Its going to vary by machine of course, but often I find if
using the t-slots to position the vise I either can't use part of the
work envelope of the machine or it clamps work pieces outside the work
envelope. I don't care for the average cast mill vise with bolt holes
either. Same limitations different cause. Yes I do have several, but
none of them have keys on the bottom. I like what is marketed as "CNC
vises" with a slot down each side and on the ends that you stick a
clamp of some kind into. Sure, you either have to buy or make vise
hold down clamps, but you can position your vise ideally for the work
you want to do and make the most use of your machine and your vise.
You can even clamp it down at almost any angle without the need of a
rotary base and without the loss/change of horizontal accuracy that
might come with an inexpensive vise and rotary base.
Now the guy who is proud of his keys. I try not to shit on his parade
either. Its entirely possible that whatever level of quick accuracy
his keys provide is good enough for the work he does, and ultimately
that is what matters. If you can produce parts within spec everything
else is wasted motion.
Now, I don't own any really expensive vises. Maybe the keys on the
bottom of a Kurt or Orange vise are dead nuts and maybe they only get
used on machines whose t-slots are dead nuts.
I do use keys. Just not on vises. I use a lot of shop made fixture
plates for cutting rectangular bar stock larger than I can easily hold
and position in a vise, and for holding more pieces of stock than I
could hold in the vises I could fit on the machine table. If I ever
perfect my own ideas for a universal fixture plate I may never put a
vise directly on the table of several of my machines again, but that
is a whole different topic.
the keys in place as it locates the vice so the deviation from one end
of the fixed jaw to the other is 0.01mm as placed in the T slot. I could probably make that 0 if I wanted to try but haven't got the need. I
can't think of a time when I've needed to angle the vice as I can angle
the work piece by other means if required.
I've got several machines where I do use a vise. I don't use keys on
the bottom of any of them. I have in the past, but my experience was
unless I pulled the keys and machined them they didn't just position
the vise accurately enough I didn't have to indicate it in anyway.
People in this group encouraged me to learn to indicate a vise, and
that it wouldn't be that hard with some practice. "Don't be afraid to
take the vise off. Every time you put it back on it will be easier."
They were right. I still have some anxiety about placing a vise on
the table and indicating it in. I've got two machines where I use a
pair of vises dialed in together. That's a little more tedious but not horrible. A couple minutes with a brass hammer and an indicator at
worst. If I am having a tough time it can take me five-ten minutes
dial in two vises together. Usually not. If using soft jaws I'll
still skim cut them so the average is consistent across the entire range.
Once in a while I slide a vise on the table, and indicate it so close
I actually find myself moving it off alignment, because I can't
believe it slid on so close the first try. Not all the time, but
often enough that I no longer need to go on a social media group to
share my excitement about it. Oh, I still get excited about it. I
just don't need to share it every time it happens now.
I do smile when somebody else posts about it for their first time. I
feel good for them. I don't make a big deal about it but I don't shit
on their parade either. I am happy for them. The first time it
happens it really is a big deal. Anytime anybody accomplishes
something I try to be happy that they have improved their skills. Not
sneer down my nose that I have been able to do that for years.
The one that really annoys me though is this guy. "Oh, I have keys on
my vise and every time I put it on the table its accurate within 5 thousandths." That last five thousandths is usually the most work to
dial in, and five thousandths over the length of the average vise is
just not that good. He isn't doing anybody any favors in my opinion
and his bragging about his short cut doesn't make sense to me. I
think the keys are costing him time really. If he just eyeballed it on
the table, put an indicator on it, and used the tap and travel method
he could hit better than 5 thou just as quick. That's not even why I
don't use keys though.
I feel like keys (on a vise) limit my ability to make maximum use of
my machine or my vise. Basically I can only place the vise in 3
positions. Its going to vary by machine of course, but often I find if
using the t-slots to position the vise I either can't use part of the
work envelope of the machine or it clamps work pieces outside the work envelope. I don't care for the average cast mill vise with bolt holes either. Same limitations different cause. Yes I do have several, but
none of them have keys on the bottom. I like what is marketed as "CNC
vises" with a slot down each side and on the ends that you stick a
clamp of some kind into. Sure, you either have to buy or make vise
hold down clamps, but you can position your vise ideally for the work
you want to do and make the most use of your machine and your vise.
You can even clamp it down at almost any angle without the need of a
rotary base and without the loss/change of horizontal accuracy that
might come with an inexpensive vise and rotary base.
Now the guy who is proud of his keys. I try not to shit on his parade either. Its entirely possible that whatever level of quick accuracy
his keys provide is good enough for the work he does, and ultimately
that is what matters. If you can produce parts within spec everything
else is wasted motion.
Now, I don't own any really expensive vises. Maybe the keys on the
bottom of a Kurt or Orange vise are dead nuts and maybe they only get
used on machines whose t-slots are dead nuts.
I do use keys. Just not on vises. I use a lot of shop made fixture
plates for cutting rectangular bar stock larger than I can easily hold
and position in a vise, and for holding more pieces of stock than I
could hold in the vises I could fit on the machine table. If I ever
perfect my own ideas for a universal fixture plate I may never put a
vise directly on the table of several of my machines again, but that
is a whole different topic.
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