• rod-mill project - "mains" electric motor advice

    From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 7 12:46:08 2025
    Hello again everyone

    Rod-mill project - now thinking of the mechanical drive arrangement
    and details.

    I've updated the project webpage and you can jump straight to "Drive
    for rod mill - April 2025"

    http://weldsmith.co.uk/greet/rodmill/250318_rodmill.html

    Has sketches and calculations.

    I estimate that a 1/2HP motor would have the ability to run this mill.

    Electric induction motors - as "our" electric supply is at 50Hz, the
    common motor rotation speeds are 1500RPM and 3000RPM.
    Just commenting so if you are in a 60Hz region the numbers are
    recognisable.

    The mill turns at about 60RPM

    (/ 1500 60e0) ;; 25.0

    So that would be 25:1 from a 4-pole motor.

    If using flat-belts (or any other belt drive) that needs 2
    countershafts, for a 3-stage speed reduction?

    Snr. Villavicencio in what I take to be South America takes that as
    being the case

    YouTube:
    "Molino californiano o de pisones"
    Edgar Villavicencio

    The applicable likeness is
    * the petrol motor has about the same revs as an electric motor
    * these California stamps run at about the same revs as the rod-mill

    If Snr. Villavicencio knows no better economical way to achieve the
    drive with speed-reduction, there is unlikely to be one(?).

    (Digression, but explaining my respect:
    I was amazed to see pictures of the fatigue-testing machine at a
    university in Columbia used for some good research - they had made it themselves and it was "jaw-droppingly" remarkably elegant and vastly
    simpler, being mechanical, than the electronically-controlled
    servo-hydraulic machines we use here in "the West" - it was also much
    more efficient, using a motor about what you'd find in a
    washing-machine where we'd have a 10's-of-kW 3-phase motor running the hydraulic pump. I got in-touch by email with the Professor there in
    Columbia, who was very forthcoming and good to message with)

    Right, this is where you (plural) have all the pragmatic experience
    and I have just about none...

    What is the best solution to buy?

    Get a 1ph-to-3ph power-electronic drive which costs but then be able
    to use second-hand 3-phase motors? Getting variable-frequency and speed-control within a useful 10's of percent range that way?

    Going single-phase,
    thinking that one motor should be able to serve various projects...

    4-pole single-phase motor?

    If 2-pole 3000RPM motor were cheaper, maybe can get one with eg. a
    10:1 gearbox giving 300RPM output giving maybe only a single-stage
    speed reduction with flat-belts for quite a range of projects?

    I am not overly hopeful of coming-by single-phase motors
    second-hand...

    Advice on brands and sources of motors - what is best value-for-money
    if price alone is not what dictates that?

    Category of motor?
    There are various "capacitor-start" / "capacitor-run" specs.

    What size of motor, given 1/2HP looks like about the minimum for this particular project but not necessarily future projects?

    This is very wide-open as a question, for sure...

    I think of mounting the motor on a plate of some simple rectangular
    dimension, which can be moved between projects and bolted into place.
    Being free to drill new holes in the plate for unique features to that
    project.

    Thanks in advance,
    Rich S

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  • From Leon Fisk@21:1/5 to Richard Smith on Mon Apr 7 09:53:47 2025
    On Mon, 07 Apr 2025 12:46:08 +0100
    Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

    <snip>
    maybe can get one with eg. a 10:1 gearbox giving 300RPM output

    A lot of the snowblowers and less expensive lawnmowers over here use a
    variable friction drive as the transmission. Similar to this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_drive#Perpendicular_disks

    It works as both the clutch and variable ground speeds...

    You might find something similar on the cheap in your area🤷️

    --
    Leon Fisk
    Grand Rapids MI

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Mon Apr 14 20:14:20 2025
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1ldsc42kf.fsf@void.com...

    If using flat-belts (or any other belt drive) that needs 2
    countershafts, for a 3-stage speed reduction?

    https://woodgears.ca/big_bandsaw/pulley.html

    ...

    Hi again

    Prices came in on 0.75kW motors = 1HP.

    This is all "clean new start" - don't have to fit in with anything
    before.

    "Inherently" single-phase motor:

    1ph 4-pole motor - so on 50Hz is 1500rpm.
    Coming in at about GBP160, then tax at 20%


    Convert 1ph to 3ph and get 2nd-hand 3ph electric motors:

    "Digital" converter - GBP250 for 1HP - then tax.
    Is 240V only (GBP420 if can do 440V - "star and delta")
    So needs "dual voltage" motor - assured most in last 30 years are (??)
    Says - typically fine for one-person user - only one machine at a time
    - but can start ancilliaries like pumps etc. after big machine
    running. Not "DOL" - has to be simple switch.
    That's about 1HP converter can drive 1HP motor IF the digital
    converter does a "soft-start" - and if one motor already running,
    cannot "soft-start" the "new" motor (stating the obvious).

    Didn't ask if offers speed-control - ability to control over +-30%
    range would be a blessing - not have to vary speed with different
    pulleys.

    The "digital" 1ph-to-3ph is a good brand.

    Folk - any guidance?

    It would do me a lot of good to get this project done, so I am not
    going to sweat this too much - in the absence of being shown the way,
    I will likely get the single-phase 0.75kW motor, do the belts and see
    this thing running a.s.a.p.
    In a lifetime, sometimes it's better to get that next step done and
    know all about what you'd do next when it comes around again.

    Regards, Rich S

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 15 09:18:18 2025
    I looked at the second-hand bulletin boards.
    Some "possibles".
    The cost of travel to look would absorb a lot of the second-hand saving.
    I will go to see family up in "the North" imminently - will look at "doubling-up". See if can get to see and maybe collect on a journey I
    am already doing.

    Best wishes, Rich S

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed Apr 16 10:30:42 2025
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m11pttet2t.fsf@void.com...

    ...

    ...
    At Mitre the engineers would roughly specify the project and order
    critical components before asking me to complete the design details
    and handle construction. That worked out well, they knew the theory
    and I knew the practice.

    They consulted you first to find-out if your instinct aligned with their analysis and intention to progress?

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 16 12:26:15 2025
    Hey everyone

    Earlier in the "fwiw - rod-mill project start" (concentrating then on "metallurgical" part of rod-mill) someone mentioned continuously
    variable transmission speed ratio using two disks, with one impinging on
    the other at right-angles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_drive

    It came to me - that would be neat in this application.
    Put it close to the motor at high speed, so small and limited torque.
    Came back to me when some single-phase motors on offer are 2-pole
    3000RPM. That could be turned into some degree of advantage if had a
    disk on motor-shaft and its counterpart disk at right-angles and where
    it touches the motor disk gives the exact speed ratio.
    With high speed (not a problem for the drive) and low torque (advantage
    for this drive).

    The drive from then-on being by belts.

    The position of the second disk could be fixed and you could slide the
    entire motor along to change speed-ratio.

    Would be brilliant for a tumbling-mill - rod-mill or ball-mill.
    Could adjust until get the ideal "cateracting" (the grinding medium and
    ore detaches from the wall of the shell at about 2/3rds height of shell
    and crashes-down on the opposite wall at about the "7 o'clock" position)
    or "cascading" (the grinding medium and ore tumbles back over itself
    after being climbed some way up the side of the shell).

    Thanks.
    It's a positive thought...

    Best wishes,

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  • From Leon Fisk@21:1/5 to Richard Smith on Wed Apr 16 08:49:56 2025
    On Wed, 16 Apr 2025 12:26:15 +0100
    Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

    <snip>
    Earlier in the "fwiw - rod-mill project start" (concentrating then on >"metallurgical" part of rod-mill) someone mentioned continuously
    variable transmission speed ratio using two disks, with one impinging on
    the other at right-angles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_drive

    This is what the bottom tranny area looks like on my old Snapper
    Snowblower. The silver colored disk is belt coupled to the 5hp engines power-takeoff shaft. It spins all the time the engine is running. The
    rubber disk contacts it when a hand grip is squeezed. The lever in
    front slides it left to right changing speed and reverse by contacting
    the other side of the disk. Everything you want is already here. This
    is a common drive mechanism in the snowblowers here and some
    lawnmowers...

    https://postimg.cc/gallery/yzX0ybk

    --
    Leon Fisk
    Grand Rapids MI

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  • From Leon Fisk@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu Apr 17 10:49:41 2025
    On Wed, 16 Apr 2025 17:31:56 -0400
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    <snip>
    The friction drive operates only the ground wheels, a separate pulley on the >engine shaft drives the auger and impeller on mine, with considerable >reduction to both the auger and wheel drive pulleys. The old friction disk
    on my Toro slipped rather easily though the rubber rim was mostly intact. It >might be enough for a 1/2 HP motor, I'd rig a test setup before committing
    it into a machine.

    Yeah, just the ground wheels on mine too. Almost all the blowers use
    something like this for the wheel drive. I looked at a lot of parts
    manuals last fall when thinking of buying one...

    The old Snapper 8hp riding mowers use the same mechanism for the wheel
    drive. That was my first encounter with one. It's held up well, a lot of
    miles on that machine cutting grass and hauling my butt around on it.
    Control is just the opposite, you push in the pedal to release the
    drive wheel.

    Close up image of the drive here:

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ib2GprTP5hk/maxresdefault.jpg

    General search show lots of pictures for the whole mower, misc parts diagrams...

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=snapper+riding+mower+8hp&kd=-1&kp=-2&ia=images&iax=images

    --
    Leon Fisk
    Grand Rapids MI

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 21 09:42:04 2025
    Hi everyone
    I have been shown how to do this with power-electronics and
    "off-the-shelf" gearbox, etc. With all speed-control needed.
    A friend had made a small welding positioner. Hence adapted it:
    * VFD - 1ph-to-3ph
    v
    * 3ph induction motor
    v
    * worm-drive gearbox
    You turn a knob setting the output Hz. Adequate speed range.

    Having seen this - that it works and does everything wanted - will
    simply do it this way.
    Have friend's equipment on "unspecified loan' in my car to take home and
    play with more.

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 21 09:19:35 2025
    Snowblower tansmission pics - thanks

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Apr 22 08:44:18 2025
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1wmbd29er.fsf@void.com...

    Hi everyone
    I have been shown how to do this with power-electronics and
    "off-the-shelf" gearbox, etc. With all speed-control needed.
    A friend had made a small welding positioner. Hence adapted it:
    * VFD - 1ph-to-3ph
    v
    * 3ph induction motor
    v
    * worm-drive gearbox
    You turn a knob setting the output Hz. Adequate speed range.

    Having seen this - that it works and does everything wanted - will
    simply do it this way.
    Have friend's equipment on "unspecified loan' in my car to take home and
    play with more.

    -----------------------------------------

    That is an excellent way to learn what works. The potential problems
    are cost and custom machining. In that instance I'd look up and save
    the components' data sheets and see how their max power ratings
    compare to what was needed and what you intend to do. I've been burned
    by guessing that something was good enough, my sawmill left a trail of
    broken ball bearing innards until I switched to a more reputable and expensive brand for the blade guides.

    I hardly ever find the same device twice as second hand and must
    decide on the spot if what I found is suitable, which may depend on
    its power rating. People dispose of what they can't use, typically
    because they are either inadequate or broken.
    I tested that contactor for pull-in voltage and contact resistance.

    I will go with "off the shelf". Now seen what's needed.
    Time si too valuable.

    * have the thing working (hopefully!) and making inroads here in
    Cornwall

    * free to get on with other things I have to do - would cost me more in
    what I have not done than I could save not "placing orders" for what
    is spec'd for the job.

    One "blessing".
    Gearbox must for sure have a torque rating.
    Derive torque.
    Found it's gloriously simple - relation of power, torque and revs.
    P=tau.omega

    P=power (Watts)
    tau = torque (Newton.metres)
    omega = rotation-rate (radians/s)
    Latter makes total sense - well it does for me :-) Radian is where a
    radius is wrapped around the circumference. Very often gives vast simplifications (compared to working in angular Degrees or Revs Per
    Minute, etc.).
    Prompted that way, I can easily see from first principles how
    "P=tau.omega" can be derived, giving total satisfaction in applying it.

    So I can look through spec.sheets for "off-the-shelf" gearboxes.

    I have a 30:1 gearbox on loan.
    However, reckon 7:1 would make the drive "synchronous" (if ran motor at
    mains frequency, would give the right drive speed).
    Of course you need speed adjustment to make the mill(s) work exactly
    right - but what you are asking is very achievable - say +-25% - which
    an induction motor can do no problem.
    [welding positioner - is so low power draw for small parts that eg. 10% of
    the mains synchronous speed it is designed for is not a problem]
    So going to have to get a 7:1 ish gearbox for mill.

    Speed control should be wide enough to run rod-mills and ball-mills on
    the same rollers-on-a-frame, no mechanical changes needed.

    I calculated for the "metallurgical" part of the rod-mill - everything
    which is and is within the "shell" ("drum"):
    * 65RPM of shell rotation rate
    * 127W of power draw

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 29 22:26:47 2025
    Update these many weeks later...

    Video on YouTube:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/QWyuFxhJBiw?si=S6XRwMTUNetdnfHy
    "Rod-mill 1st working"

    I put in a few trowels of "sharp sand" - image of result here: http://weldsmith.co.uk/greet/rodmill/pics/ptmp/250529_1st_gnd_sharpsand_m.jpg Promising.

    What's seen in video is a contraption.
    Never-the-less, can do a range of valuable tests hopefully - informing
    the next iteration of the project.

    Regards,

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Fri May 30 10:10:39 2025
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1v7pjhzvs.fsf@void.com...

    Update these many weeks later...

    ...

    ---------------------------
    Congratulations. Did you learn anything worth sharing about designing
    and building low budget powered machinery?

    Yes

    * blag anything and everything you can - gifted or "on unspecified loan"

    * have a lot of mates

    * volunteer at societies so you meet people and are not floundering alone

    * help others, so help comes back to you

    * do go out and do other things - take time out - it's amazing how you
    can bump into people who know about what it is you are doing

    * as ever, there's the balance between:
    think it through, often doing calculations
    ^
    v
    get tools in your hands, get started, and try what seems possible

    * if you face a significant capital cost, think what it's worth to you
    in a lifetime. Whatever it is is likely to have some use, and "going
    for it" "opens doors".

    Technically:

    Speed control is now in power-electronics.

    Expanding that:
    speed control of electric motor powered machines is now using
    power-electronics using the "inverter" principle. They've "hit the mainstream".

    It goes:

    "mains" 1ph
    v
    VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) - "inverter" VFD
    v
    3ph electric motor
    v
    {mechanical drive to application}

    I find that in places like the Philippines (what "the West" would call
    "third world") they have been improvising specialised machines for
    several years - approaching 10 years now - certainly 7 years judging by
    YouTube videos.
    The VFD's (Variable Frequency Drives) all look about the same.
    Probably one source - or a city where all the makers are concentrated
    using overwhelmingly the same components.

    The cost of the VFD's is some fraction of the cost of the motor - less
    than 1/3rd - typically more like 1/4.
    Begs the question - why bother with a single-phase motor any more?!?
    3-phase motors are self-starting, robust, smooth torque - and no
    "wearable" components like capacitors.
    Have as many VFD's as you have motors. The VFD's are interchangeable.
    So what if you have one or two spare if you have many applications
    in-use...
    ???

    The ability to "chop" at higher than the input frequency - empirically I
    found that that implementation of the rod-mill was optimal at 55Hz to
    the motor.
    Our mains here is 50Hz...
    That bit of "headroom" "saved the day".
    (the device, the VFD, refuses to go above 60Hz output - likely don't
    want "the heat" from people turning up at hospital with bits of motor
    embedded in them?)

    That's about it.
    Glad I went for it.
    On the "in a lifetime" principle. Work came to a stop while
    international trade re-aligns and I went for this.
    Other story here for me is that we have got a diamond core drill working
    at our hobby mine nearby - and there is some chance of that leading to
    gainful employment. The thing would need a 300HP compressor "at grass",
    but we can run it in bursts on the air in the air-main acting as a
    receiver. Has a 20HP (?) air-motor. Enough while we go through the
    learning curve.
    So I have had two big themes in this time.

    And ... I have taken the time writing to you all, as a thank-you for
    timely advice and suggestions. I've had a coffee while doing it. I
    have quite a list of to-do's and missions today.

    Best wishes from here in Cornwall, England.

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  • From David Billington@21:1/5 to Richard Smith on Fri May 30 12:47:04 2025
    On 30/05/2025 10:10, Richard Smith wrote:
    That bit of "headroom" "saved the day".
    (the device, the VFD, refuses to go above 60Hz output - likely don't
    want "the heat" from people turning up at hospital with bits of motor embedded in them?)

    In my limited experience with 2 VFDs they come with a default maximum
    output frequency, 50Hz IIRC with mine, which you have to change in the configuration if you want to run faster. The first ABB VFD was changed
    to 100Hz, the 2nd a Chinese one to 400Hz. RTFM.

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 30 12:11:20 2025
    On Fri, 30 May 2025 12:47:04 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
    wrote:

    On 30/05/2025 10:10, Richard Smith wrote:
    That bit of "headroom" "saved the day".
    (the device, the VFD, refuses to go above 60Hz output - likely don't
    want "the heat" from people turning up at hospital with bits of motor
    embedded in them?)

    In my limited experience with 2 VFDs they come with a default maximum
    output frequency, 50Hz IIRC with mine, which you have to change in the >configuration if you want to run faster. The first ABB VFD was changed
    to 100Hz, the 2nd a Chinese one to 400Hz. RTFM.

    This is my experience too.

    Joe

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sat May 31 10:15:10 2025
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> writes:

    On Fri, 30 May 2025 12:47:04 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
    wrote:

    On 30/05/2025 10:10, Richard Smith wrote:
    That bit of "headroom" "saved the day".
    (the device, the VFD, refuses to go above 60Hz output - likely don't
    want "the heat" from people turning up at hospital with bits of motor
    embedded in them?)

    In my limited experience with 2 VFDs they come with a default maximum >>output frequency, 50Hz IIRC with mine, which you have to change in the >>configuration if you want to run faster. The first ABB VFD was changed
    to 100Hz, the 2nd a Chinese one to 400Hz. RTFM.

    This is my experience too.

    Joe

    50% faster would generally be without unsought thrills?

    YOu could go a bit faster as a test with everything out of the way, then
    settle on what you want?

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  • From Richard Smith@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 31 10:16:13 2025
    Thanks for writing the nice summary.

    My pleasure.
    Thanks for the guidance on this and all other matters.

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  • From David Billington@21:1/5 to Richard Smith on Sat May 31 14:35:43 2025
    On 31/05/2025 10:15, Richard Smith wrote:
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> writes:

    On Fri, 30 May 2025 12:47:04 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
    wrote:

    On 30/05/2025 10:10, Richard Smith wrote:
    That bit of "headroom" "saved the day".
    (the device, the VFD, refuses to go above 60Hz output - likely don't
    want "the heat" from people turning up at hospital with bits of motor
    embedded in them?)
    In my limited experience with 2 VFDs they come with a default maximum
    output frequency, 50Hz IIRC with mine, which you have to change in the
    configuration if you want to run faster. The first ABB VFD was changed
    to 100Hz, the 2nd a Chinese one to 400Hz. RTFM.
    This is my experience too.

    Joe
    50% faster would generally be without unsought thrills?

    YOu could go a bit faster as a test with everything out of the way, then settle on what you want?

    The ABB VFD I was using was connected to an inverter rated TEFC motor,
    like that one you showed in your clip, and rated to operate at up to 2X
    the nominal speed at 50Hz, it was powering a flat lap for glass and V
    belt speed reduction to the lap platter. I only had to balance it
    slightly to have it run smoothly from min to max speed and no drama even
    at resonant speeds before balancing. Nice feature of the VFD was scaling
    of the output display so I had it display platter speed rather than
    motor speed.

    The Chinese VFD set to 400Hz was powering a 24k rpm spindle which is
    what it was supplied for but it came with basic default parameters so it
    had to be programmed to run up to 24k rather than 3k so I configured it
    to run from the VFD panel as a basic test of the VFD and spindle, next
    is to change the settings for external run input and 0-10V speed control.

    What happens if you run things faster in your application you'll have to
    assess with the components you're using.

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