https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, 31 January 2023 at 17:40:53 UTC, AB wrote:

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

As an Ansermet fan I naturally like Henri Helaerts, his bassoonist. We had this on a 10" record when I was in my early years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf_p1TmvIZY

Bassoon Concerto in D Minor, RV 481: Vivaldi

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 2:27:31 PM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:

On Tuesday, 31 January 2023 at 17:40:53 UTC, AB wrote:

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

As an Ansermet fan I naturally like Henri Helaerts, his bassoonist. We had this on a 10" record when I was in my early years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf_p1TmvIZY

Bassoon Concerto in D Minor, RV 481: Vivaldi

yes, he is very good........ thanks

AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 21:15:20 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:17:15 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

I really have not listened to many bassoonists, but thought this was the best Mozart Bassoon Concerto out there - and still think it is; the orchestra is also wonderful, Schwarzwald Kammerorchester. Just listened to bits of Henri Helaerts in the Mozart
Bassoon Concerto, and I can see where you are coming from wrt heavy "touch" (Dönneweg compared to Helaerts). I am much more reminded of the clarity of Michelangeli in his late recordings of the Mozart PCs, and who some might also consider to be a bit
heavy (compared to Gieseking or Schnabel or Argerich etc) and cold; and ofc he plays beautifully, with heart which you ofc can't hear.

Helaerts reminds me a bit of Pletnev maybe, very soft touch, always soft... Do you like Pletnev? I really don't like it too much when the notes "dissolve", before they even have appeared in clarity - especially in Mozart, might be different in other or
specific cases.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:17:15 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 12:46:43 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

he plays beautifully, with heart which you ofc can't hear.

Did you see "Duck Soup"?

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 9:40:53 AM UTC-8, AB wrote:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........
very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how
to use vibrato in a phrase.......

Wait until she hits 80.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 10:17:15 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........
very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how
to use vibrato in a phrase.......

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

Not comparable.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 03:28:40 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 10:17:15 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........
very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how
to use vibrato in a phrase.......

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

Not comparable.

dk

Why are you fixated on me. Do you think Andy's link is comparable?

I actually think one can still compare the Bassoonists in some way, even though that wasn't my intention - I just wanted to hear AB's thoughts about Dönneweg. One can compare everything to anything I think and by doing so one will encounter the
differences etc.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 03:29:33 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 12:46:43 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

he plays beautifully, with heart which you ofc can't hear.

Did you see "Duck Soup"?

dk

It does not matter to me if the piece is technically easier than Saint-Saens', it's evident to everyone that Mozart's Bassoon Concerto is much more beautiful, and that's what matters.

I have not seen Duck Soup and I don't intend to. WRT Marx-Brothers it seems they don't have the specific Jewish humour, the self-mockery type of humour, a humour that you seem to lack as well. The humour of Marx-Brothers - I got this from Ruth Wisse - is
more the kind of outsiders poking fun at insiders (italian immigrants making fun of the American way of life type of humour maybe); which also seems to be something you like to do (making fun of experts etc, but never joking about yourself).

Note: It's really been a few years since I looked into Mozart's Bassoon Concerto, and I might view things differently if I looked into it again, maybe I was wrong with my assessment of Dönneweg being the best here (I likely was, I would need to listen
to more Bassoonists). I really like the sound the orchestra produces, and also the phrasing (in most parts). I remember being surprised, after being confronted with all the hip-orchestras etc, about this Mozart-performance. Looked a bit into the
orchestra more yesterday evening, and I have to say, not really good... (but they do have a nice texture sometimes). Probably AB is right and there are better Bassoonists, and maybe Henri Helaerts is technically more proficient, I can't tell as I really
have not listened to many bassoonists and therefore lack feeling and understanding; but still I don't really like the tone of Helaerts... similar to why I don't like Pletnev. BTW I am not saying Helaerts is the Pletnev of Bassoonists, or that Dönneweg
is the Michelangeli of Bassoonists (Which would be stupid), I'm just trying to find analogies for "touch" and I seem to like Dönneweg's touch more than the diffuse sound Helaerts produces.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:47:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 03:28:40 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 10:17:15 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing......... very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how
to use vibrato in a phrase.......

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

Not comparable.

Why are you fixated on me.

Did I say anything about you?
Can you point it out?

Do you think Andy's link is comparable?

I did not say anything about
Andy's link.

I actually think one can still compare the
Bassoonists in some way, even though
that wasn't my intention -

I just wanted to hear AB's thoughts about
Dönneweg. One can compare everything
to anything I think and by doing so one
will encounter the differences etc.

Of course. One can compare Bruegel and
Picasso, Prokofiev and Gesualdo, Kant
and Simone de Beauvoir, Elvis Presley
and the Queen, etc....

One can even compare Jews and Nazis --
which is what you do so often.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:42:40 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 03:29:33 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 12:46:43 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

he plays beautifully, with heart which you ofc can't hear.

Did you see "Duck Soup"?

It does not matter to me if the piece is technically easier than Saint-Saens', it's evident to everyone that Mozart's Bassoon
Concerto is much more beautiful, and that's what matters.

Isn't beauty in the eyes and the ears of the beholders/listeners?

I have not seen Duck Soup and I don't intend to. WRT Marx-
Brothers it seems they don't have the specific Jewish humour,
the self-mockery type of humour, a humour that you seem to
lack as well. The humour of Marx-Brothers - I got this from
Ruth Wisse - is more the kind of outsiders poking fun at
insiders (italian immigrants making fun of the American
way of life type of humour maybe); which also seems to
be something you like to do (making fun of experts etc,
but never joking about yourself).

ROTFL! You have now earned a PhD in Jewish studies and
are now the resident expert on Jewish humour?

Note: It's really been a few years since I looked into Mozart's
Bassoon Concerto, and I might view things differently if I looked
into it again, maybe I was wrong with my assessment of Dönneweg
being the best here (I likely was, I would need to listen to more Bassoonists).

Maybe you should try blowing into one.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 21:15:20 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:17:15 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

I just listened again to the middle movement, and you are right. His touch is too strong and heavy. Thanks for pointing this out. I can also see where you are coming from with "careless tapering of notes". But your answer also seemed a bit "careless" to
me. How about pointing out some of your favorites wrt Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? -- Still I think the orchestra is really beautiful here.

*my comparison with michelangeli was only in reference to the "clarity" of the tone, he sure is no michelangeli. but helaerts' tone is just too diffuse to me.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 10:18:52 AM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 21:15:20 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:17:15 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

I just listened again to the middle movement, and you are right. His touch is too strong and heavy. Thanks for pointing this out. I can also see where you are coming from with "careless tapering of notes". But your answer also seemed a bit "careless"

to me. How about pointing out some of your favorites wrt Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? -- Still I think the orchestra is really beautiful here.

in the future I will try to be less "careless" -
orchestra (horns)is good, so what??
David McGill with Cleveland Orc. recording, incredible musician,

*my comparison with michelangeli was only in reference to the "clarity" of the tone, he sure is no michelangeli. but helaerts' tone is just too diffuse to me.

different concept of tone.
AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

AB schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 19:38:15 UTC+1:

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 10:18:52 AM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 21:15:20 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:17:15 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

AB schrieb am Dienstag, 31. Januar 2023 um 18:40:53 UTC+1:

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:45:56 AM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOz6l4P_Vrg

thank you.......... attractive woman, unattractive playing.........very unmusical, no musical 'line', no understanding how to use vibrato in a phrase.......

AB

How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

I just listened again to the middle movement, and you are right. His touch is too strong and heavy. Thanks for pointing this out. I can also see where you are coming from with "careless tapering of notes". But your answer also seemed a bit "careless"

to me. How about pointing out some of your favorites wrt Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? -- Still I think the orchestra is really beautiful here.

in the future I will try to be less "careless" -

It does not seem as if you're being honest, but at least you followed my indirect orders.

orchestra (horns)is good, so what??
David McGill with Cleveland Orc. recording, incredible musician,

Thanks for mentioning. Just listened to the middle movement. I have to say, I'm not convinced.

*my comparison with michelangeli was only in reference to the "clarity" of the tone, he sure is no michelangeli. but helaerts' tone is just too diffuse to me.

different concept of tone.

I like his tone. The problem seems to me that you can't really attack with this tone, it's all just round, there are no edges, nothing is sharp; like, the tones he produces are soft clouds that mesh with one another, instead of being points that are
connected with lines; Mozart with a lot of pedal. Not really sure about this approach... i don't think this roundness does Mozart any good tbh, but then... his tone was beautiful and I'm really unsure of the possibilities of Bassoon's as I haven't heard
enough, but I think he McGill could be a bit more sharper from what I heard in the slow movement. Still unsure generally, just some thoughts.

Do you think the same tone should be used on all composers?

AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:40:50 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

I just listened again to the middle movement, and you are right. His touch is too strong and heavy. Thanks for pointing this out. I can also see where you are coming from with "careless tapering of notes". But your answer also seemed a bit "

careless" to me. How about pointing out some of your favorites wrt Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? -- Still I think the orchestra is really beautiful here.

in the future I will try to be less "careless" -

It does not seem as if you're being honest, but at least you followed my indirect orders.

orchestra (horns)is good, so what??
David McGill with Cleveland Orc. recording, incredible musician,

Thanks for mentioning. Just listened to the middle movement. I have to say, I'm not convinced.

your problem:-))))

my comparison with michelangeli was only in reference to the "clarity" of the tone, he sure is no michelangeli. but helaerts' tone is just too diffuse to me.


a French bassoon...............as opposed to the German bassoon sound

I like his tone.

standard tone......



The problem seems to me that you can't really attack with this tone, it's all just round, there are no edges, nothing is sharp; like, the tones he produces are soft clouds that mesh with one another, instead of being points that are connected with lines;
Mozart with a lot of pedal. Not really sure about this approach... i don't think this roundness does Mozart any good tbh, but then... his tone was beautiful and I'm really unsure of the possibilities of Bassoon's as I haven't heard enough, but I think
he McGill could be a bit more sharper from what I heard in the slow movement. Still unsure generally, just some thoughts.

Do you think the same tone should be used on all composers?

hard to change tone

AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

AB schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 19:37:59 UTC+1:

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 3:40:50 PM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eQXAijLKk

just OK.....good technique, heavy 'touch'! at times, careless tapering of notes.......

AB

I just listened again to the middle movement, and you are right. His touch is too strong and heavy. Thanks for pointing this out. I can also see where you are coming from with "careless tapering of notes". But your answer also seemed a bit "

careless" to me. How about pointing out some of your favorites wrt Mozart's Bassoon Concerto? -- Still I think the orchestra is really beautiful here.

in the future I will try to be less "careless" -

It does not seem as if you're being honest, but at least you followed my indirect orders.

orchestra (horns)is good, so what??
David McGill with Cleveland Orc. recording, incredible musician,

Thanks for mentioning. Just listened to the middle movement. I have to say, I'm not convinced.

your problem:-))))

If you think so.

my comparison with michelangeli was only in reference to the "clarity" of the tone, he sure is no michelangeli. but helaerts' tone is just too diffuse to me.
a French bassoon...............as opposed to the German bassoon sound

Where is Herman to remind you that there is no such thing as a "French sound" or a "German sound", just as there is no "Russian sound"...

I like his tone.

standard tone......

I thought it was the french tone? Didn't you just explain that he has the "French bassoon sound" as opposed to the "German bassoon sound"? And now you are telling me that it's just a standard tone? So the guy - McGill - you call an "incredible musician",
just has a "standard tone"?

Try to be less careless in the future...

Also: Can one not like a "standard" tone? I did not say I "really" liked it, I just said I liked it.

I think you are right wrt French sound though in describing his tone; when i was thinking about his tone, I thought it would be more approriate in impressionistic pieces.

This McGill vs Dönneberg debate that I'm having with myself wrt tone, reminds me a bit of the debate I had between Marcellus and de Peyer wrt Mozart's clarinet concerto; de Peyer is just perfect imo, he is neither to sharp, nor too soft (but this might
also have to do something with the different instrument); Dönneberg is just too heavy, strong and sharp for me, similar to Marcellus. But McGill otoh is just too soft... I will have to listen to more Bassoonists. Your criticism of Dönneberg was well
received; thanks for your thoughts. He doesn't convince me as well (anymore).

The problem seems to me that you can't really attack with this tone, it's all just round, there are no edges, nothing is sharp; like, the tones he produces are soft clouds that mesh with one another, instead of being points that are connected with

lines; Mozart with a lot of pedal. Not really sure about this approach... i don't think this roundness does Mozart any good tbh, but then... his tone was beautiful and I'm really unsure of the possibilities of Bassoon's as I haven't heard enough, but I
think he McGill could be a bit more sharper from what I heard in the slow movement. Still unsure generally, just some thoughts.

Do you think the same tone should be used on all composers?

hard to change tone

?

Tone is related to the instrument and to touch. Change the instrument and change your touch to change the tone... Michelangeli changed his tone during his life, listen to his Schumann PC with Scherchen and compare it to the Schumann PC with Celibidache (
especially the latest one; if i remember correctly there are two recordings of the Schumann PC with Celibidache); listen to his early Mozart PC recordings and compare them to his later ones etc. There are countless examples of people changing their tone
throughout their life.

Speaking about Michelangeli's Mozart PC 20 with Giulini for example, do you think "trained musicians" would have identified Michelangeli as the pianist if they had only known his later recordings? I doubt that very much - maybe one or two would have
identified him, but probably they wouldn't have been too confident while doing it.

You make it seem as if you have been put in a strait jacket wrt tone... You are a human, you have a free will, you can change stuff... you can change your tone.

I don't think McGill's tone is suited for Mozart, neither is Dönneberg's...

AB

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)