On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 10:20:00 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
it reveals what you're said a million times before.
that's not a revelation; it's mind-numbing stuckness.
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 10:20:00 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
it reveals what you're said a million times before.
that's not a revelation; it's mind-numbing stuckness.
GPOC is/was one of the most remarkable projects ever for pianophiles.
Henk
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 12:00:38 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
GPOC is from 1999. Why this whining 23 years after the fact,
1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
Since then there's the youtube option. Now you can hear all these all these guys who (due to financial constraints) didn't make GPOC on youtube.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 12:00:38 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
GPOC is from 1999. Why this whining 23 years after the fact, when virtually no one buys cd's anymore? Just to have some more negativity?
Since then there's the youtube option. Now you can hear all these all these guys who (due to financial constraints) didn't make GPOC on youtube.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 1:51:13 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
GPOC is/was one of the most remarkable projects ever for pianophiles.
Henk
You think so? Piano recordings appear virtually every day, contemporary and historical.
On 2/28/2023 8:14 AM, Herman wrote:releases.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 1:51:13 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
GPOC is/was one of the most remarkable projects ever for pianophiles.
Henk
You think so? Piano recordings appear virtually every day, contemporary and historical.Not to forget that had the GPOC project not been done, somebody else might have done something similar, maybe better, maybe worse. Even if no one produced a major collection at that time, there undoubtedly would have more smaller scale historical
However, there was only one GPOC - and there will probably never be a second one (at least not in my life).
Henk
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 3:58:49 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
However, there was only one GPOC - and there will probably never be a second one (at least not in my life).
HenkProducing a 'series', with identical covers, is one of the classic marketing strategies to make people buy, for instance, an Andre Previn piano record they'd otherwise would never have purchased.
In a way it's a pretty lazy way to sell records, books or anything.
GPOC is from 1999. Why this whining 23 years after the fact, when virtually no one buys cd's anymore? Just to have some more negativity?
Since then there's the youtube option. Now you can hear all these all these guys who (due to financial constraints) didn't make GPOC on youtube.
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 10:20:00 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:wasn't Tom's choice, IIRC.
A quick survey of GPOC contents revealsThe cooperation of the other companies left much to be desired. Also, wasn't there a Farakhan somewhere who was involved in the artistic aspects? But, as always, money and copyrights came first, artistic and pianistic preferences came later. Previn
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:The Horowitz/Chopin CD is a clear example of the problems Tom had to deal with. I missed Backhaus.
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,Haskil's bonus was her Scarlatti recordings. Argerich was too young, Kovacevich and Turek were not great pianists pianistically.
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,I never heard of Zak, Flier, Feinberg, Jonas, Levy, Fiorentino, Zecchi before I joined RMCR. Von Karolyi was not a great pianist in the sense that he didn't make an impressive career. Nat did, but his recordings are beyond boring.
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
Henk
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 10:20:00 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:wasn't Tom's choice, IIRC.
A quick survey of GPOC contents revealsThe cooperation of the other companies left much to be desired. Also, wasn't there a Farakhan somewhere who was involved in the artistic aspects? But, as always, money and copyrights came first, artistic and pianistic preferences came later. Previn
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:The Horowitz/Chopin CD is a clear example of the problems Tom had to deal with. I missed Backhaus.
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,Haskil's bonus was her Scarlatti recordings. Argerich was too young, Kovacevich and Turek were not great pianists pianistically.
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,I never heard of Zak, Flier, Feinberg, Jonas, Levy, Fiorentino, Zecchi before I joined RMCR. Von Karolyi was not a great pianist in the sense that he didn't make an impressive career. Nat did, but his recordings are beyond boring.
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
Henk
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:00:38 AM UTC, HT wrote:wasn't Tom's choice, IIRC.
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 10:20:00 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
A quick survey of GPOC contents revealsThe cooperation of the other companies left much to be desired. Also, wasn't there a Farakhan somewhere who was involved in the artistic aspects? But, as always, money and copyrights came first, artistic and pianistic preferences came later. Previn
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:The Horowitz/Chopin CD is a clear example of the problems Tom had to deal with. I missed Backhaus.
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,Haskil's bonus was her Scarlatti recordings. Argerich was too young, Kovacevich and Turek were not great pianists pianistically.
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,I never heard of Zak, Flier, Feinberg, Jonas, Levy, Fiorentino, Zecchi before I joined RMCR. Von Karolyi was not a great pianist in the sense that he didn't make an impressive career. Nat did, but his recordings are beyond boring.
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
HenkWell I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.
Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 19:19:39 UTC+1:wasn't Tom's choice, IIRC.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:00:38 AM UTC, HT wrote:
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 10:20:00 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
A quick survey of GPOC contents revealsThe cooperation of the other companies left much to be desired. Also, wasn't there a Farakhan somewhere who was involved in the artistic aspects? But, as always, money and copyrights came first, artistic and pianistic preferences came later. Previn
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:The Horowitz/Chopin CD is a clear example of the problems Tom had to deal with. I missed Backhaus.
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,Haskil's bonus was her Scarlatti recordings. Argerich was too young, Kovacevich and Turek were not great pianists pianistically.
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,I never heard of Zak, Flier, Feinberg, Jonas, Levy, Fiorentino, Zecchi before I joined RMCR. Von Karolyi was not a great pianist in the sense that he didn't make an impressive career. Nat did, but his recordings are beyond boring.
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while1 set for Rachmaninoff is almost all we have. Schnabel could have been more, I guess, but mainly Beethoven, Schubert and some Mozart - and there is more than enough of that in the GPOC.
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
I assume you are talking about Argerich? Love her in Partita 2, but I think I like Gould more.HenkWell I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 19:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.I agree. There is nothing wrong with Tureck's Bach, nor Kovacevich's Beethoven. They just weren't pianists with great international careers.
The same goes for others, e.g. Eschenbach and Haebler.
Barenboim and Pollini certainly earned their place, though they are not my preferred interpreter of anything.
Henk
HT schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:16:33 UTC+1:
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 19:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.I agree. There is nothing wrong with Tureck's Bach, nor Kovacevich's Beethoven. They just weren't pianists with great international careers.
Oh right, I didn't catch her name while glimpsing over the name. I think I'm with Dan on Tureck. I just remember not being too impressed...
The same goes for others, e.g. Eschenbach and Haebler.
Barenboim and Pollini certainly earned their place, though they are not my preferred interpreter of anything.
Henk
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:27:38 UTC+1:
HT schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:16:33 UTC+1:
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 19:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.I agree. There is nothing wrong with Tureck's Bach, nor Kovacevich's Beethoven. They just weren't pianists with great international careers.
Oh right, I didn't catch her name while glimpsing over the name. I think I'm with Dan on Tureck. I just remember not being too impressed...
*Haven't listened to her much though and not for a long time. Maybe I should try again soon.
The same goes for others, e.g. Eschenbach and Haebler.
Barenboim and Pollini certainly earned their place, though they are not my preferred interpreter of anything.
Henk
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:36:04 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:the last second. Ditto for Rudolf Serkin’s widow, which forced him to include none of the CBS recordings from the prime of his career.
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:27:38 UTC+1:
HT schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:16:33 UTC+1:
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 19:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.I agree. There is nothing wrong with Tureck's Bach, nor Kovacevich's Beethoven. They just weren't pianists with great international careers.
Oh right, I didn't catch her name while glimpsing over the name. I think I'm with Dan on Tureck. I just remember not being too impressed...
*Haven't listened to her much though and not for a long time. Maybe I should try again soon.
The same goes for others, e.g. Eschenbach and Haebler.
Barenboim and Pollini certainly earned their place, though they are not my preferred interpreter of anything.
He wrote about many of his constraints over the years. Among them:Henk
- Various artists labels waffled on licensing recordings. Sony (pre-BMG merger) was not willing to let him reissue Gould’s Bach or Beethoven, or anything of Horowitz during his CBS era. Pogorelich agreed to participate and then changed his mind at
- These volumes were issued in batches several months apart in non-consecutive order, so the volume numbers were set. This created an alphabetical ordering constraint if an artist dropped out. That’s how Previn ended up in the set when Pogorelichdropped out. Someone in the B’s dropped out so that’s why he added an extra Brendel volume and the Bruk/Taimanov volume. An absurd situation and an even more absurd solution.
- There were the infamous miss-attributions – Moiseiwitsch pawned off as Paderewski, horrible Cortot recordings of Schumann with floods of mistakes from the 1950’s pawned off as his prime late 1920’s / early 1930’s recordings. He blamed EMI forsending him the wrong tapes and had them reimburse Philips for the cost of pulling those Cortot volumes and reissuing them. But if he were a reissue producer, wouldn’t you think the least he could do is actually listen to the tapes before sending them
No collection is going to satisfy all tastes. The biggest problem I had was the lack of thought around the choice of repertoire. If this was going to be a comprehensive survey of great pianism spanning 100 CD’s to be used as a resource for libraries,one would think the basic piano repertoire would be spanned. Far from it. Some of the excesses and omissions are glaring. There are scores of Brahms 2nd PC’s and zero Brahms 1st’s. There are zero Beethoven 2nd and 3rd PC’s, but torrents of 1, 4,
A 100 CD collection of great pianism spanning most of the 20th century was a major achievement. But it could have been so much better than it was without needing to split hairs.I think it is very important to determine as precisely as possible the term "great" in evaluating this collection. It is a question that has occupied my thinking quite a lot over the years, and I have settled on the method in determining "greatness" by
My biggest beef with GPOC is very specific - the decision to follow Brendel’s advice and recall the Cortot volumes which had his late performances. At the time those performances were hard to hear, and they give a good glimpse into what Cortotsounded like, his tone.
I think Tom’s choice of recordings could be inspired - the selection for Gould, for example. And the decision to use later Sofronitsky performances. And the Czerny for Weissenberg. And the Bolet Chopin recital. And as I said, the Tureck.--
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 3:53:54 PM UTC-8, David Fox wrote:the last second. Ditto for Rudolf Serkin’s widow, which forced him to include none of the CBS recordings from the prime of his career.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:36:04 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:27:38 UTC+1:
HT schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:16:33 UTC+1:
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 19:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.I agree. There is nothing wrong with Tureck's Bach, nor Kovacevich's Beethoven. They just weren't pianists with great international careers.
Oh right, I didn't catch her name while glimpsing over the name. I think I'm with Dan on Tureck. I just remember not being too impressed...
*Haven't listened to her much though and not for a long time. Maybe I should try again soon.
The same goes for others, e.g. Eschenbach and Haebler.
Barenboim and Pollini certainly earned their place, though they are not my preferred interpreter of anything.
He wrote about many of his constraints over the years. Among them:Henk
- Various artists labels waffled on licensing recordings. Sony (pre-BMG merger) was not willing to let him reissue Gould’s Bach or Beethoven, or anything of Horowitz during his CBS era. Pogorelich agreed to participate and then changed his mind at
dropped out. Someone in the B’s dropped out so that’s why he added an extra Brendel volume and the Bruk/Taimanov volume. An absurd situation and an even more absurd solution.- These volumes were issued in batches several months apart in non-consecutive order, so the volume numbers were set. This created an alphabetical ordering constraint if an artist dropped out. That’s how Previn ended up in the set when Pogorelich
for sending him the wrong tapes and had them reimburse Philips for the cost of pulling those Cortot volumes and reissuing them. But if he were a reissue producer, wouldn’t you think the least he could do is actually listen to the tapes before sending- There were the infamous miss-attributions – Moiseiwitsch pawned off as Paderewski, horrible Cortot recordings of Schumann with floods of mistakes from the 1950’s pawned off as his prime late 1920’s / early 1930’s recordings. He blamed EMI
libraries, one would think the basic piano repertoire would be spanned. Far from it. Some of the excesses and omissions are glaring. There are scores of Brahms 2nd PC’s and zero Brahms 1st’s. There are zero Beethoven 2nd and 3rd PC’s, but torrentsNo collection is going to satisfy all tastes. The biggest problem I had was the lack of thought around the choice of repertoire. If this was going to be a comprehensive survey of great pianism spanning 100 CD’s to be used as a resource for
asking whether or not the pianist (or composer, composition, etc.) has made so great an impact on people's understanding of the artform that the artist or artwork really must be included in any thoughtful understanding of that historical period of music.A 100 CD collection of great pianism spanning most of the 20th century was a major achievement. But it could have been so much better than it was without needing to split hairs.I think it is very important to determine as precisely as possible the term "great" in evaluating this collection. It is a question that has occupied my thinking quite a lot over the years, and I have settled on the method in determining "greatness" by
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 9:05:33 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:sounded like, his tone.
On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, Mandryka wrote:
My biggest beef with GPOC is very specific - the decision to follow Brendel’s advice and recall the Cortot volumes which had his late performances. At the time those performances were hard to hear, and they give a good glimpse into what Cortot
playing - not only accuracy, but tone production and general interpretive approach. He was quite aware of his decline, and the swagger that pervades his earlier recordings is completely gone. Compare and contrast his Schumann Symphonic Etudes from 1929Can you elabirate? In what sense are you using "recall"?I disagree about Cortot. By the early 1950's he was suffering from Parkinson's disease as well as an opioid addiction that resulted from a chronic painful medical condition. He simply lost control of his mechanism, and that affected all aspects of his
I think Tom’s choice of recordings could be inspired - the selection for Gould, for example. And the decision to use later Sofronitsky performances. And the Czerny for Weissenberg. And the Bolet Chopin recital. And as I said, the Tureck.--
Al Eisner
I don't know what Alfred Brendel had to to with the decision. Deacon was personally embarrassed by the gaffe and it was his decision to recall and reissue. I think it was disgraceful that he made EMI pay for the recall when he was partially at faultfor failing to properly review the recordings prior to release.
On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, Mandryka wrote:sounded like, his tone.
My biggest beef with GPOC is very specific - the decision to follow Brendel’s advice and recall the Cortot volumes which had his late performances. At the time those performances were hard to hear, and they give a good glimpse into what Cortot
Can you elabirate? In what sense are you using "recall"?
I think Tom’s choice of recordings could be inspired - the selection for Gould, for example. And the decision to use later Sofronitsky performances. And the Czerny for Weissenberg. And the Bolet Chopin recital. And as I said, the Tureck.--
Al Eisner
On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, Mandryka wrote:
My biggest beef with GPOC is very specific - the decision to follow
Brendel’s advice and recall the Cortot volumes which had his late
performances. At the time those performances were hard to hear, and they
give a good glimpse into what Cortot sounded like, his tone.
Can you elabirate? In what sense are you using "recall"?
I think Tom’s choice of recordings could be inspired - the selection for >> Gould, for example. And the decision to use later Sofronitsky performances. >> And the Czerny for Weissenberg. And the Bolet Chopin recital. And as I
said, the Tureck.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 3:53:54 PM UTC-8, David Fox wrote:the last second. Ditto for Rudolf Serkin’s widow, which forced him to include none of the CBS recordings from the prime of his career.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:36:04 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:27:38 UTC+1:He wrote about many of his constraints over the years. Among them:
HT schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 20:16:33 UTC+1:
Op dinsdag 28 februari 2023 om 19:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:Oh right, I didn't catch her name while glimpsing over the name. I think I'm with Dan on Tureck. I just remember not being too impressed...
Well I think she was a great interpreter of Bach on modern piano, and part of my reason saying that is precisely the performances which Tom chose for her GPOC.I agree. There is nothing wrong with Tureck's Bach, nor Kovacevich's Beethoven. They just weren't pianists with great international careers.
*Haven't listened to her much though and not for a long time. Maybe I should try again soon.
The same goes for others, e.g. Eschenbach and Haebler.
Barenboim and Pollini certainly earned their place, though they are not my preferred interpreter of anything.
Henk
- Various artists labels waffled on licensing recordings. Sony (pre-BMG merger) was not willing to let him reissue Gould’s Bach or Beethoven, or anything of Horowitz during his CBS era. Pogorelich agreed to participate and then changed his mind at
dropped out. Someone in the B’s dropped out so that’s why he added an extra Brendel volume and the Bruk/Taimanov volume. An absurd situation and an even more absurd solution.
- These volumes were issued in batches several months apart in non-consecutive order, so the volume numbers were set. This created an alphabetical ordering constraint if an artist dropped out. That’s how Previn ended up in the set when Pogorelich
for sending him the wrong tapes and had them reimburse Philips for the cost of pulling those Cortot volumes and reissuing them. But if he were a reissue producer, wouldn’t you think the least he could do is actually listen to the tapes before sending
- There were the infamous miss-attributions – Moiseiwitsch pawned off as Paderewski, horrible Cortot recordings of Schumann with floods of mistakes from the 1950’s pawned off as his prime late 1920’s / early 1930’s recordings. He blamed EMI
one would think the basic piano repertoire would be spanned. Far from it. Some of the excesses and omissions are glaring. There are scores of Brahms 2nd PC’s and zero Brahms 1st’s. There are zero Beethoven 2nd and 3rd PC’s, but torrents of 1, 4,
No collection is going to satisfy all tastes. The biggest problem I had was the lack of thought around the choice of repertoire. If this was going to be a comprehensive survey of great pianism spanning 100 CD’s to be used as a resource for libraries,
by asking whether or not the pianist (or composer, composition, etc.) has made so great an impact on people's understanding of the artform that the artist or artwork really must be included in any thoughtful understanding of that historical period ofI think it is very important to determine as precisely as possible the term "great" in evaluating this collection. It is a question that has occupied my thinking quite a lot over the years, and I have settled on the method in determining "greatness"
A 100 CD collection of great pianism spanning most of the 20th century was a major achievement. But it could have been so much better than it was without needing to split hairs.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:20:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
Pathetic!
Far less pathetic to speak ill of the dead.
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
Pathetic!
dk
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:20:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
Pathetic!
dk
Far less pathetic to speak ill of the dead.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 6:48:03 PM UTC-8, George wrote:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:20:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
Each of the following had 3 sets:
Arrau, Brendull, Gilels, Horowitz, Kempff,
Richter, Rubinstein.
Each of the following had 2 sets:
Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky, Cortot, Fischer,
Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,
Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a bonus Haskil
CD was added to the German edition of
the set).
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,
Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves Nat, Maryla
Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,
Carlo Zecchi or Julian von Karolyi in a
set that finds room for Andre Previn?
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while
Rachmaninov and Schnabel only got
one each?
Pathetic!
Far less pathetic to speak ill of the dead.
TD spoke more ill than anyone else I've encountered on
RMCR over three decades. He chased scores of people
away and came as close to killing the group as anyone
ever has. Not to mention he celebrated the death and
spoke very ill of long-time group member John Wilson
who was one of the kindest and most generous people
I've ever known, on RMCR or off. His death erases none
of this. Actually, it can't avoid conjuring it back up.
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 5:59:38 PM UTC+1, David Fox wrote:
That's indeed a deeply miserable thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
what I take away from it is TD's miconceived notion that this:
For starters, each and every one of us here is entitled and free to
state his opinions
means you can be as disagreeable as you feel like and (especially) can keep going relentlessly. Noone can stop you.
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 5:59:38 PM UTC+1, David Fox wrote:
That's indeed a deeply miserable thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
what I take away from it is TD's miconceived notion
that this: For starters, each and every one of us here
is entitled and free to state his opinions means you
can be as disagreeable as you feel like and (especially)
can keep going relentlessly. Noone can stop you.
It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can
or should be stopped. It's an issue of human decency.
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:36:46 AM UTC-8, David Fox wrote:
It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can"Decency" however can have different definitions and
or should be stopped. It's an issue of human decency.
different intepretations depending on culture and even
on individual. How do you propose desling with this?
dk
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:36:46 AM UTC-8, David Fox wrote:
It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can
or should be stopped. It's an issue of human decency.
"Decency" however can have different definitions and
different intepretations depending on culture and even
on individual. How do you propose desling with this?
dk
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:20:19 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 5:59:38 PM UTC+1, David Fox wrote:
That's indeed a deeply miserable thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
what I take away from it is TD's miconceived notion that this:It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can or should be stopped. It's an issue of human decency.
For starters, each and every one of us here is entitled and free to
state his opinions
means you can be as disagreeable as you feel like and (especially) can keep going relentlessly. Noone can stop you.
Some things are intuitively obvious, Dan.
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 6:48:03 PM UTC-8, George wrote:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:20:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:> >
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals> > Tom Deacon's artistic and
pianistic biases:> >
Each of the following had 3 sets:> >> > Arrau, Brendull, Gilels,
Horowitz, Kempff,> > Richter, Rubinstein.> >
Each of the following had 2 sets:> >> > Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky,
Cortot, Fischer,> > Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,> >
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,> > Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a
bonus Haskil> > CD was added to the German edition of> > the set).> >
So conservative and so boring! No Zak,> > Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves
Nat, Maryla> > Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,> > Carlo Zecchi or
Julian von Karolyi in a> > set that finds room for Andre Previn?> >
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while> > Rachmaninov and Schnabel only
Pathetic!> >> > dk>> Far less pathetic to speak ill of the dead.one each?> >
TD spoke more ill than anyone else I've encountered on RMCR over three decades. He chased scores of people away and came as close to killing
the group as anyone ever has. Not to mention he celebrated the death
and spoke very ill of long-time group member John Wilson who was one of
the kindest and most generous people I've ever known, on RMCR or off.
His death erases none of this. Actually, it can't avoid conjuring it
back up.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
On 2023-03-02 16:59:35 +0000, David Fox said:
On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 6:48:03 PM UTC-8, George wrote:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:20:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:> > >> A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals> > Tom Deacon's artistic and
pianistic biases:> >
Each of the following had 3 sets:> >> > Arrau, Brendull, Gilels,
Horowitz, Kempff,> > Richter, Rubinstein.> >
Each of the following had 2 sets:> >> > Argerich, Bolet, Cherkassky,
Cortot, Fischer,> > Gieseking, Gulda, Haskil, Janis. Katchen,> >
Kovacevich. De Larrocha, Michelangeli,> > Ogdon, Pollini, Turdreck (a >>> bonus Haskil> > CD was added to the German edition of> > the set).> > >>> So conservative and so boring! No Zak,> > Flier, or Feinberg! No Yves >>> Nat, Maryla> > Jonas, Ernst Levy, Sergio Fiorentino,> > Carlo Zecchi or >>> Julian von Karolyi in a> > set that finds room for Andre Previn?> >
2 sets for Ogdon and Turdreck while> > Rachmaninov and Schnabel only
Pathetic!> >> > dk>> Far less pathetic to speak ill of the dead.one each?> >
TD spoke more ill than anyone else I've encountered on RMCR over three decades. He chased scores of people away and came as close to killing
the group as anyone ever has. Not to mention he celebrated the death
and spoke very ill of long-time group member John Wilson who was one of the kindest and most generous people I've ever known, on RMCR or off.
His death erases none of this. Actually, it can't avoid conjuring it
back up.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
One thing that moved me while perusing this link was not Deacon's vile remarks, but the chorus of names that bring back good memories
castigating him. I miss those people.
-Owen
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 6:36:46 PM UTC+1, David Fox wrote:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:20:19 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 5:59:38 PM UTC+1, David Fox wrote:It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can or should be stopped. It's an issue of human decency.
That's indeed a deeply miserable thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
what I take away from it is TD's miconceived notion that this:
For starters, each and every one of us here is entitled and free to
state his opinions
means you can be as disagreeable as you feel like and (especially) can keep going relentlessly. Noone can stop you.
Going against this decency is a kind of free speech absolutism I abhor.
So much so that whenever someone starts about "free speech" I tune out.
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:38:56 AM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:36:46 AM UTC-8, David Fox wrote:> >> >
It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can> > or should be
stopped. It's an issue of human decency.
"Decency" however can have different definitions and> different
intepretations depending on culture and even> on individual. How do you
propose desling with this?>> dk
Other than by self-policing it can't be dealt with absent moderation.
That's why the bulk of unmoderated groups tend to fail. Gresham's Law -
the bad drive out the good. The proper way for a group to self-police
is to individually filter and shun rather than to continually feed
trollish behavior. But that requires some combination of active effort
and self-control that most unmoderated newsgroup participant either
can't or won't muster. TD was a master of provoking angry exits and
lowering the level of discourse. That seems to be the rule on the
unmoderated Internet, not the exception. He definitely got to me after
the JW thread. I got so angry just thinking about it that I didn't want
to have anything to do with RMCR. Who wants to live in a state of
anger?
Of course moderation has driven me crazy at times too. The world is an imperfect place.
For example, I check in on rec.audio.opinion occasionally just as a
behavior exercise to see if the same flame wars involving the same individuals still represent 99% of activity, and three decades on I
am never disappointed.
The world is an imperfect place
Le 02/03/2023, David Fox a supposé :
The world is an imperfect place
Life is a Tale
Told by an Idiot
Full of Sound and Fury
Signifying Nothing...
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 6:31:39 PM UTC, Owen Hartnett wrote:
On 2023-03-02 16:59:35 +0000, David Fox said:
TD spoke more ill than anyone else I've encountered on RMCR over threeOne thing that moved me while perusing this link was not Deacon's vile
decades. He chased scores of people away and came as close to killing
the group as anyone ever has. Not to mention he celebrated the death
and spoke very ill of long-time group member John Wilson who was one of
the kindest and most generous people I've ever known, on RMCR or off.
His death erases none of this. Actually, it can't avoid conjuring it
back up.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
remarks, but the chorus of names that bring back good memories
castigating him. I miss those people.
-Owen
Then join Symphonyshare. That's where many of them can still be found, alive and well.
I wonder if they're managing to discuss Tár ;)
On Thu, Mar 02 2023, Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 6:31:39 PM UTC, Owen Hartnett wrote:
On 2023-03-02 16:59:35 +0000, David Fox said:
TD spoke more ill than anyone else I've encountered on RMCR over three >>>> decades. He chased scores of people away and came as close to killingOne thing that moved me while perusing this link was not Deacon's vile
the group as anyone ever has. Not to mention he celebrated the death
and spoke very ill of long-time group member John Wilson who was one of >>>> the kindest and most generous people I've ever known, on RMCR or off.
His death erases none of this. Actually, it can't avoid conjuring it
back up.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
remarks, but the chorus of names that bring back good memories
castigating him. I miss those people.
-Owen
Then join Symphonyshare. That's where many of them can still be found, alive and well.
Though Symphonyshare had (and may still have) its bad moments, I left
because of the moderator's views which allowed his right wing political
views but prevented discussion about abuse by well known musicians and vilified those who mentioned it. As a consequence I was forever banned
from the group.
I wonder if they're managing to discuss Tár ;)
Robert
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 9:20:19???AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:While I prefer unmoderating NG's, neither the history nor life expectancy of them is good. For example, I check in on rec.audio.opinion occasionally just as a behavior exercise to see if the same flame wars involving the same individuals still represent
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 5:59:38???PM UTC+1, David Fox wrote:
That's indeed a deeply miserable thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
what I take away from it is TD's miconceived notion that this:
For starters, each and every one of us here is entitled and free to
state his opinions
means you can be as disagreeable as you feel like and (especially) can keep going relentlessly. Noone can stop you.
It's not an issue of free speech or whether anyone can or should be stopped. It's an issue of human decency. Words and actions have consequences and many of TD's words we can safely say were highly detrimental to the quality and viability of RMCR.
Not that I was in that league but the John Wilson thread triggered a multi-year hiatus for me and my participation has been sporadic ever since.
On 3/4/2023 3:55 PM, Robert Marshall wrote:
On Thu, Mar 02 2023, Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 6:31:39 PM UTC, Owen Hartnett wrote:Though Symphonyshare had (and may still have) its bad moments, I
On 2023-03-02 16:59:35 +0000, David Fox said:
TD spoke more ill than anyone else I've encountered on RMCR over three >>>>> decades. He chased scores of people away and came as close to killing >>>>> the group as anyone ever has. Not to mention he celebrated the death >>>>> and spoke very ill of long-time group member John Wilson who was one of >>>>> the kindest and most generous people I've ever known, on RMCR or off. >>>>> His death erases none of this. Actually, it can't avoid conjuring it >>>>> back up.One thing that moved me while perusing this link was not Deacon's vile >>>> remarks, but the chorus of names that bring back good memories
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/F-kMaB82eGU/m/xbs8ZycSSo4J?fbclid=IwAR0JZCTbxYOZ55XdH4vz7iESEgLGw6l-RGgC9I1hd_ydQeIaJ_YnF0hrm9I
castigating him. I miss those people.
-Owen
Then join Symphonyshare. That's where many of them can still be found, alive and well.
left
because of the moderator's views which allowed his right wing political
views but prevented discussion about abuse by well known musicians and
vilified those who mentioned it. As a consequence I was forever banned
from the group.
I wonder if they're managing to discuss Tár ;)
Robert
Wait, which was it? You left or you were banned?
On Sat, Mar 04 2023, Frank Berger <frankdberger@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/4/2023 3:55 PM, Robert Marshall wrote:
On Thu, Mar 02 2023, Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
Though Symphonyshare had (and may still have) its bad moments, I
Then join Symphonyshare. That's where many of them can still be found, alive and well.
left
because of the moderator's views which allowed his right wing political
views but prevented discussion about abuse by well known musicians and
vilified those who mentioned it. As a consequence I was forever banned
from the group.
I wonder if they're managing to discuss Tár ;)
Robert
Wait, which was it? You left or you were banned?
It was both - I announced I was leaving (and unsubscribed) and as a
result of an emailed discussion resulting from that was told that I
could not return.
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
dk
I still say there should have been a volume containing all of Busoni's disc recordings, filled out with two hours' worth of Petri.
M.
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 1:20:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
A quick survey of GPOC contents reveals
Tom Deacon's artistic and pianistic biases:
dk
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