"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
On 10/21/23 6:00 PM, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.HAH!
I read this when it came out a few days back. I did not think that
anyone would actually believe it so I did not post it.
Yep. And this is not the worst of it here. For the past week the main newspaper (Oregonian--aka oregonlive) has featured a front page series
of stories of atrocities by police against black people *that happened
50 years ago*, with the implication that this is relevant today,
https://projects.oregonlive.com/the-forgotten-four/
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
There's gotta be a better way.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
There's gotta be a better way.Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)There's gotta be a better way.Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,There's gotta be a better way.
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)There's gotta be a better way.Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
On 10/22/23 9:05 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
You live in the US, right, b?
You can see that granting a diploma from
the public school system is mostly an act of political appeasement. It's
a tacit form of AA.
Stealth AA.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,There's gotta be a better way.
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
On 10/22/23 9:16 AM, Gracchus wrote:
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
It's worse, Gracchus. Many colleges/universities have dropped the requirement for a SAT/ACT. This may have been part of the fallout over George Floyd.
It's difficult to overstate the effect the image of the choking of Floyd
had on Gen Z. It was a very powerful image, a lot like the girl at Kent State screaming over a fallen fellow protester was to the Boomers.
So in an attempt to appease and soothe the feelings of young,
upper-middle class Gen Z kids, many progressive institutions bent over backwards to make nice to our dusky brethren.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)There's gotta be a better way.Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
It looks more to like they've bent over forwards.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:47:05 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 9:05 AM, bmoore wrote:Yes. Born and raised, love it.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:You live in the US, right, b?
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
You can see that granting a diploma fromSaw, I dunno what you mean. AA=Alcoholics Anonymous? Please clarify.
the public school system is mostly an act of political appeasement. It's
a tacit form of AA.
Stealth AA.
I had great high school teachers in middle class suburbia.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
There's gotta be a better way.
Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
On 10/22/23 9:53 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:47:05 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 9:05 AM, bmoore wrote:Yes. Born and raised, love it.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:You live in the US, right, b?
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
You can see that granting a diploma fromSaw, I dunno what you mean. AA=Alcoholics Anonymous? Please clarify.
the public school system is mostly an act of political appeasement. It's >> a tacit form of AA.
Stealth AA.
I had great high school teachers in middle class suburbia.Affirmative Action, you coy dog, you.
;^)
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)There's gotta be a better way.Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end is
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in standardised
Okaaaay.
Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >> > writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
There's gotta be a better way.
Aside from making kids actually learn, right?Will it change much? Kids who want to learn will learn, and the
intelligent self-starters will still achieve same as before. I don't
tend to believe that standardized tests prove a lot, definitely not
mastery of the subjects. I've known so many high school diploma holders
who have good jobs but can barely string a coherent sentence together in adulthood. We even have one in this newsgroup! And vice versa, I've encountered highly intelligent people who don't have a diploma (or have
a GED, which from what I hear is a total joke of a test).
That said, I don't tend to agree with the "person of color" angle of
this new policy.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:36 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 9:16 AM, Gracchus wrote:It looks more to like they've bent over forwards.
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.It's worse, Gracchus. Many colleges/universities have dropped the
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
requirement for a SAT/ACT. This may have been part of the fallout over
George Floyd.
It's difficult to overstate the effect the image of the choking of Floyd
had on Gen Z. It was a very powerful image, a lot like the girl at Kent
State screaming over a fallen fellow protester was to the Boomers.
So in an attempt to appease and soothe the feelings of young,
upper-middle class Gen Z kids, many progressive institutions bent over
backwards to make nice to our dusky brethren.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:"The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end is
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in standardised
Okay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-7, jdeluise wrote:score via practice tests.
Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> writes:I agree that standardized tests probably prove less about the taker's abilities than their motivation to score well on the test. It's also true what you say about certain very smart people lacking a diploma and some not-so-smart people having one.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Will it change much? Kids who want to learn will learn, and the
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
intelligent self-starters will still achieve same as before. I don't
tend to believe that standardized tests prove a lot, definitely not
mastery of the subjects. I've known so many high school diploma holders
who have good jobs but can barely string a coherent sentence together in
adulthood. We even have one in this newsgroup! And vice versa, I've
encountered highly intelligent people who don't have a diploma (or have
a GED, which from what I hear is a total joke of a test).
That said, I don't tend to agree with the "person of color" angle of
this new policy.
But I still think it's better to set a threshold for students than removing the bar altogether and rating them as having cleared it. Especially when it comes to demonstrating writing ability. With the other portions, it's a lot easier to boost your
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:"The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end is
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay requirement.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/That one has been a godsend for underachievers.
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)That's like saying "In the 1940s, most white-owned restaurants would not
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well."
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in standardised
Okaaaay.
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:requirement.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in standardised
If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regardingOkay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a state-sponsored indoctrination.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private
school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for
change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The
argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and
more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in
the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist.
But...oh, well! :^)
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:requirement.
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in standardised
I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regardingOkay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a
state-sponsored indoctrination.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private
school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for
change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The
argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and
expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and
more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in
the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong
screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist.
But...oh, well! :^)
On 10/22/23 9:56 AM, Gracchus wrote:"...for typical lazy liberal kids addicted to smartphones..."
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:That one has been a godsend for underachievers.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:"The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test,
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay,
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery ofThere's gotta be a better way.
reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students
of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-s >>>>>>>> tudents-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to >>>>>>>> -graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier,
to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it
should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those
skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them
through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay
portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write
anything longer than a phone text without exposing their
inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
requirement.
just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids
can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays
was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why
they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as
well. One of the major changes from their end is cancelling the SAT
Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this
blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students,
and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion,
none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
Given the behavior of "black patrons" in the modern age, seems they were correct.* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (noThat's like saying "In the 1940s, most white-owned restaurants would
doubt that part is true) * most universities don't require it for
admission
not seat black patrons."
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many
felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students.
Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may
enhance perceived accessibility in standardised testing. For similar
reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well."
Okaaaay.
Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >> > writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
There's gotta be a better way.
Aside from making kids actually learn, right?Will it change much? Kids who want to learn will learn, and the
intelligent self-starters will still achieve same as before. I don't
tend to believe that standardized tests prove a lot, definitely not
mastery of the subjects. I've known so many high school diploma holders
who have good jobs but can barely string a coherent sentence together in adulthood. We even have one in this newsgroup! And vice versa, I've encountered highly intelligent people who don't have a diploma (or have
a GED, which from what I hear is a total joke of a test).
That said, I don't tend to agree with the "person of color" angle of
this new policy.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-7, jdeluise wrote:score via practice tests.
Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >> > writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
There's gotta be a better way.
Aside from making kids actually learn, right?Will it change much? Kids who want to learn will learn, and the intelligent self-starters will still achieve same as before. I don't
tend to believe that standardized tests prove a lot, definitely not mastery of the subjects. I've known so many high school diploma holders who have good jobs but can barely string a coherent sentence together in adulthood. We even have one in this newsgroup! And vice versa, I've encountered highly intelligent people who don't have a diploma (or have
a GED, which from what I hear is a total joke of a test).
That said, I don't tend to agree with the "person of color" angle ofI agree that standardized tests probably prove less about the taker's abilities than their motivation to score well on the test. It's also true what you say about certain very smart people lacking a diploma and some not-so-smart people having one.
this new policy.
But I still think it's better to set a threshold for students than removing the bar altogether and rating them as having cleared it. Especially when it comes to demonstrating writing ability. With the other portions, it's a lot easier to boost your
On 10/22/23 10:22 AM, Gracchus wrote:score via practice tests.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-7, jdeluise wrote:
Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> writes:I agree that standardized tests probably prove less about the taker's abilities than their motivation to score well on the test. It's also true what you say about certain very smart people lacking a diploma and some not-so-smart people having one.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Will it change much? Kids who want to learn will learn, and the
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote:Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
"Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading, >>>>> writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
intelligent self-starters will still achieve same as before. I don't
tend to believe that standardized tests prove a lot, definitely not
mastery of the subjects. I've known so many high school diploma holders >> who have good jobs but can barely string a coherent sentence together in >> adulthood. We even have one in this newsgroup! And vice versa, I've
encountered highly intelligent people who don't have a diploma (or have >> a GED, which from what I hear is a total joke of a test).
That said, I don't tend to agree with the "person of color" angle of
this new policy.
But I still think it's better to set a threshold for students than removing the bar altogether and rating them as having cleared it. Especially when it comes to demonstrating writing ability. With the other portions, it's a lot easier to boost your
The primary rationale for standardized tests used for college admissions
was to give an objective assessment of where a candidate stood kn
varying subjects at the time of the test. This was used to function as a reality check for the candidate's GPA. There are not only differing
grading systems in use, but depending on the school, different levels of achievement needed to attain each grade. And grading has drifted more
and more toward subjectivity.
SATs and ACTs were the counterbalance.
Now it can be pure warm-fuzzies for the candidates.
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:requirement.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in standardised
If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regardingOkay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a state-sponsored indoctrination.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private
school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for
change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The
argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and
more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in
the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist.
But...oh, well! :^)
On 10/22/23 11:16 AM, bmoore wrote:testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma ofHeck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
requirement.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
standardised testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/ >>>>
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in
I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regarding >> how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a >> state-sponsored indoctrination.Okay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private
school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for
change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The
argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and >> expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and >> more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in >> the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong
screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist. >>
But...oh, well! :^)
No, I didn't.
I hope not to bore you, but I would like to describe how I see optimal pedagogy.
Say you've got a kid and you have unlimited resources.
You would find the very best person available who combines an excellent
and demonstrated mastery of a given subject, plus a demonstrated
facility to mentor at the appropriate age, and let's say the subject is music.
You have this person interact with your child, one on one for the most
part, but in groups sometimes if the mentor suggests that it would be of benefit for your kid.
You do this for each identified subject.
When your kid reaches a given point, you may need to enhance this with a
new mentor and/or an enriched environment.
The simple way to understand this is that you have, at all times that
makes sense, a one-on-one interaction with a top mentor in each topic
until mastery by the kid is demonstrated.
The next best would be to again have a one-on-one situation, but with
only one generalist mentor: someone who can do a thorough, but not necessarily the best, job teaching each of the subject. Like Alexander
with Aristotle.
Next best would be small group instruction with multiple specialist
mentors, then after than, small group with one generalist mentor.
In all above cases you, the parent, have individually interviewed the mentors, examined credentials in depth, and have decided that they are taking the direction you would want. In my case this would be hewing
closely to the subject matter, without presenting an evaluation of the subject matter in the sense of moral/ethical value. I would reserve moral/ethical instruction for my wife and myself.
Now we take a big step...formal schools.
You'll have little to no direct control over the mentor, so you will
have to interview administrative personnel and read mission statements
to try to find out what the priorities of the school are. You will
basically shop schools as if they were an investment property.
Where I live the parent used to be able to select between the public
schools in the district, under certain conditions, but this is no longer allowed, so if you go public, you will just have to take the assigned school.
For private, you'll have at least a selection. Ultimately, in speaking
with the head of the lower school where we sent our daughter, the head
of school conveyed to me a deep understanding of how you pass
information to kids, and how to make it stick as well as it can. I had taught in the public system at the elementary level for 7 years in the 1970s,and I came away with not only opinions on the direction of public education, but also on specific methodology, and she basically told me, without any prompting, what I, myself, had concluded after years of revisiting and thinking.
Added to that interview was the very public raison d'etre for the
particular school. "You're on the west coast but would like your child
to be offered admittance to prestigious private schools on the east
coast? This is what we do routinely."
So I wanted the largest possible selection pool for her, and in
selecting this school as it turns out, her peers were as Garrison Kielor said "all above average" and from homes where formal education was
greatly esteemed. This meant that her entire K-12 experience was with intelligent and motivated peers, and her own competitive nature caused
he to strive for distinction.
There *are* weaknesses in this approach (unrealistic view of the "real world"), a drift toward progressive policies, but it was the best course
my wife and I could realistically take.
I *do* think, now, having gone thru it, that she'd have been better off going to a well-regarded state university under a "practical" major
(eng. math, etc.)--and up here this would be University of Washington--rather than going to an east coast small liberal arts
college, whose name you'd know. Her peers at that place were very, very indulged, self-absorbed, and progressively dogmatic. You would be
socially excluded unless you publicly toed the line.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:testing.
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma ofHeck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
requirement.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
standardised testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in
If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regarding how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a state-sponsored indoctrination.Okay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist.
But...oh, well! :^)I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.
On 10/22/23 11:16 AM, bmoore wrote:testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma ofHeck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
requirement.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
standardised testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/ >>>>
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in
I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regarding >> how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a >> state-sponsored indoctrination.Okay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private
school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for
change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The
argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and >> expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and >> more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in >> the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong
screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist. >>
But...oh, well! :^)
No, I didn't.
I hope not to bore you, but I would like to describe how I see optimal pedagogy.
Say you've got a kid and you have unlimited resources.
You would find the very best person available who combines an excellent
and demonstrated mastery of a given subject, plus a demonstrated
facility to mentor at the appropriate age, and let's say the subject is music.
You have this person interact with your child, one on one for the most
part, but in groups sometimes if the mentor suggests that it would be of benefit for your kid.
You do this for each identified subject.
When your kid reaches a given point, you may need to enhance this with a
new mentor and/or an enriched environment.
The simple way to understand this is that you have, at all times that
makes sense, a one-on-one interaction with a top mentor in each topic
until mastery by the kid is demonstrated.
The next best would be to again have a one-on-one situation, but with
only one generalist mentor: someone who can do a thorough, but not necessarily the best, job teaching each of the subject. Like Alexander
with Aristotle.
Next best would be small group instruction with multiple specialist
mentors, then after than, small group with one generalist mentor.
In all above cases you, the parent, have individually interviewed the mentors, examined credentials in depth, and have decided that they are taking the direction you would want. In my case this would be hewing
closely to the subject matter, without presenting an evaluation of the subject matter in the sense of moral/ethical value. I would reserve moral/ethical instruction for my wife and myself.
Now we take a big step...formal schools.
You'll have little to no direct control over the mentor, so you will
have to interview administrative personnel and read mission statements
to try to find out what the priorities of the school are. You will
basically shop schools as if they were an investment property.
Where I live the parent used to be able to select between the public
schools in the district, under certain conditions, but this is no longer allowed, so if you go public, you will just have to take the assigned school.
For private, you'll have at least a selection. Ultimately, in speaking
with the head of the lower school where we sent our daughter, the head
of school conveyed to me a deep understanding of how you pass
information to kids, and how to make it stick as well as it can. I had taught in the public system at the elementary level for 7 years in the 1970s,and I came away with not only opinions on the direction of public education, but also on specific methodology, and she basically told me, without any prompting, what I, myself, had concluded after years of revisiting and thinking.
Added to that interview was the very public raison d'etre for the
particular school. "You're on the west coast but would like your child
to be offered admittance to prestigious private schools on the east
coast? This is what we do routinely."
So I wanted the largest possible selection pool for her, and in
selecting this school as it turns out, her peers were as Garrison Kielor said "all above average" and from homes where formal education was
greatly esteemed. This meant that her entire K-12 experience was with intelligent and motivated peers, and her own competitive nature caused
he to strive for distinction.
There *are* weaknesses in this approach (unrealistic view of the "real world"), a drift toward progressive policies, but it was the best course
my wife and I could realistically take.
I *do* think, now, having gone thru it, that she'd have been better off going to a well-regarded state university under a "practical" major
(eng. math, etc.)--and up here this would be University of Washington--rather than going to an east coast small liberal arts
college, whose name you'd know. Her peers at that place were very, very indulged, self-absorbed, and progressively dogmatic. You would be
socially excluded unless you publicly toed the line.
On 22 Oct 2023, Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> posted some news:uh3mr2$2ifn8$1@dont-email.me:
On 10/22/23 9:56 AM, Gracchus wrote:"...for typical lazy liberal kids addicted to smartphones..."
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:That one has been a godsend for underachievers.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:"The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test,
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay,
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of >>>>>>>>> reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students >>>>>>>>> of color"Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-s >>>>>>>>> tudents-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to >>>>>>>>> -graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html Fair is fair. >>>>>>>> There's gotta be a better way.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, >>>>>> to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it
should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those
skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them
through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay
portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write
anything longer than a phone text without exposing their
inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
requirement.
just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids
can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays
was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why
they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as
well. One of the major changes from their end is cancelling the SAT
Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this
blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students,
and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion,
none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
Given the behavior of "black patrons" in the modern age, seems they were correct.* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (noThat's like saying "In the 1940s, most white-owned restaurants would
doubt that part is true) * most universities don't require it for
admission
not seat black patrons."
How do you justify hiring a US high school product - graduate no less, who can't properly fill out a job application online, or perform basic math without a calculator?Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many
felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students.
Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may
enhance perceived accessibility in standardised testing. For similar
reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well."
Okaaaay.
On 10/23/23 7:47 AM, bmoore wrote:testing.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 12:21:10 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 11:16 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma ofHeck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
requirement.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
end is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
standardised testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/ >>>>>>
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in
Well, first and foremost you, the parent, must make yourself aware ofA reasonable algorithm. But there are some bad teachers at private schools and some good teachers at public schools, etc.No, I didn't.I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regarding >>>> how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than aOkay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
state-sponsored indoctrination.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private >>>> school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for >>>> change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The >>>> argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and
expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and >>>> more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in >>>> the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong >>>> screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in >>>> Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist.
But...oh, well! :^)
I hope not to bore you, but I would like to describe how I see optimal
pedagogy.
Say you've got a kid and you have unlimited resources.
You would find the very best person available who combines an excellent >> and demonstrated mastery of a given subject, plus a demonstrated
facility to mentor at the appropriate age, and let's say the subject is >> music.
You have this person interact with your child, one on one for the most
part, but in groups sometimes if the mentor suggests that it would be of >> benefit for your kid.
You do this for each identified subject.
When your kid reaches a given point, you may need to enhance this with a >> new mentor and/or an enriched environment.
The simple way to understand this is that you have, at all times that
makes sense, a one-on-one interaction with a top mentor in each topic
until mastery by the kid is demonstrated.
The next best would be to again have a one-on-one situation, but with
only one generalist mentor: someone who can do a thorough, but not
necessarily the best, job teaching each of the subject. Like Alexander
with Aristotle.
Next best would be small group instruction with multiple specialist
mentors, then after than, small group with one generalist mentor.
In all above cases you, the parent, have individually interviewed the
mentors, examined credentials in depth, and have decided that they are
taking the direction you would want. In my case this would be hewing
closely to the subject matter, without presenting an evaluation of the
subject matter in the sense of moral/ethical value. I would reserve
moral/ethical instruction for my wife and myself.
Now we take a big step...formal schools.
You'll have little to no direct control over the mentor, so you will
have to interview administrative personnel and read mission statements
to try to find out what the priorities of the school are. You will
basically shop schools as if they were an investment property.
Where I live the parent used to be able to select between the public
schools in the district, under certain conditions, but this is no longer >> allowed, so if you go public, you will just have to take the assigned
school.
For private, you'll have at least a selection. Ultimately, in speaking
with the head of the lower school where we sent our daughter, the head
of school conveyed to me a deep understanding of how you pass
information to kids, and how to make it stick as well as it can. I had
taught in the public system at the elementary level for 7 years in the
1970s,and I came away with not only opinions on the direction of public >> education, but also on specific methodology, and she basically told me, >> without any prompting, what I, myself, had concluded after years of
revisiting and thinking.
Added to that interview was the very public raison d'etre for the
particular school. "You're on the west coast but would like your child
to be offered admittance to prestigious private schools on the east
coast? This is what we do routinely."
So I wanted the largest possible selection pool for her, and in
selecting this school as it turns out, her peers were as Garrison Kielor >> said "all above average" and from homes where formal education was
greatly esteemed. This meant that her entire K-12 experience was with
intelligent and motivated peers, and her own competitive nature caused
he to strive for distinction.
There *are* weaknesses in this approach (unrealistic view of the "real
world"), a drift toward progressive policies, but it was the best course >> my wife and I could realistically take.
any shortcomings, and take action as needed.
Second thing here--and I'm sure you know it--most private school teacher
are not union affiliated, nor do they have permanent contracts, as is
the case with public school teachers. Each teacher negotiates his/her
own terms of employment. There are multi-year contracts, but no "tenure"
as it plays out in the public sector.
Also, interaction with other students matters too.Interaction is the same at public/private schools, the principal
difference being *who* your kid is interacting with.
Interesting aside here. The school she went to K-12 had *greater*
diversity than the public system here in PDX--there was even a human interest story in the main paper wryly noting this. This because there
were large numbers of east Asian and S Asian kids, whose parents were a) professionals and b) who firmly believed in the value of education.
There were also a fair number of Iranians, and at HS the school had international boarding students (mostly Chinese, every now and then the
odd Thai or S American)...maybe 20% of the HS population.
Overall, these parents had much higher expectancies than is commonly encountered, much higher than my own. But this served to piggy-back our daughter, who wanted to compete for academic credibility.
There were cases of recruitment of POC kids, mostly black, at the middle school/high school level. The success rate was not encouraging because
by the time they came into the school, they had already had their work habits formed in the public system, and were deeply unprepared for the routine expectancies for HS work.
Kids could--and did--wash out. In some cases over academics, in other
cases over behavior. The school told them, basically, that it was
obviously a poor fit for the child, and that they'd help in finding a
school that fit the kid's needs more closely. I actually overheard such
a message on parent-teacher conference day in elementary school when we
were there for our daughter's conference. We could hear it thru the open door, as we waited down the hall.
As a public school teacher this completely blew me away, since there is
no such policy (with the exception of posing a physical risk to other students) in the public sector.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 12:21:10 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:testing.
On 10/22/23 11:16 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma ofHeck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color" >>>>>>>>>>>>There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
requirement.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their end
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
standardised testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/ >>>>>>
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in
A reasonable algorithm. But there are some bad teachers at private schools and some good teachers at public schools, etc.No, I didn't.I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regarding >>>> how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a >>>> state-sponsored indoctrination.Okay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private
school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for
change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The
argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and >>>> expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and >>>> more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in >>>> the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong
screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in
Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist. >>>>
But...oh, well! :^)
I hope not to bore you, but I would like to describe how I see optimal
pedagogy.
Say you've got a kid and you have unlimited resources.
You would find the very best person available who combines an excellent
and demonstrated mastery of a given subject, plus a demonstrated
facility to mentor at the appropriate age, and let's say the subject is
music.
You have this person interact with your child, one on one for the most
part, but in groups sometimes if the mentor suggests that it would be of
benefit for your kid.
You do this for each identified subject.
When your kid reaches a given point, you may need to enhance this with a
new mentor and/or an enriched environment.
The simple way to understand this is that you have, at all times that
makes sense, a one-on-one interaction with a top mentor in each topic
until mastery by the kid is demonstrated.
The next best would be to again have a one-on-one situation, but with
only one generalist mentor: someone who can do a thorough, but not
necessarily the best, job teaching each of the subject. Like Alexander
with Aristotle.
Next best would be small group instruction with multiple specialist
mentors, then after than, small group with one generalist mentor.
In all above cases you, the parent, have individually interviewed the
mentors, examined credentials in depth, and have decided that they are
taking the direction you would want. In my case this would be hewing
closely to the subject matter, without presenting an evaluation of the
subject matter in the sense of moral/ethical value. I would reserve
moral/ethical instruction for my wife and myself.
Now we take a big step...formal schools.
You'll have little to no direct control over the mentor, so you will
have to interview administrative personnel and read mission statements
to try to find out what the priorities of the school are. You will
basically shop schools as if they were an investment property.
Where I live the parent used to be able to select between the public
schools in the district, under certain conditions, but this is no longer
allowed, so if you go public, you will just have to take the assigned
school.
For private, you'll have at least a selection. Ultimately, in speaking
with the head of the lower school where we sent our daughter, the head
of school conveyed to me a deep understanding of how you pass
information to kids, and how to make it stick as well as it can. I had
taught in the public system at the elementary level for 7 years in the
1970s,and I came away with not only opinions on the direction of public
education, but also on specific methodology, and she basically told me,
without any prompting, what I, myself, had concluded after years of
revisiting and thinking.
Added to that interview was the very public raison d'etre for the
particular school. "You're on the west coast but would like your child
to be offered admittance to prestigious private schools on the east
coast? This is what we do routinely."
So I wanted the largest possible selection pool for her, and in
selecting this school as it turns out, her peers were as Garrison Kielor
said "all above average" and from homes where formal education was
greatly esteemed. This meant that her entire K-12 experience was with
intelligent and motivated peers, and her own competitive nature caused
he to strive for distinction.
There *are* weaknesses in this approach (unrealistic view of the "real
world"), a drift toward progressive policies, but it was the best course
my wife and I could realistically take.
Also, interaction with other students matters too.
I *do* think, now, having gone thru it, that she'd have been better off
going to a well-regarded state university under a "practical" major
(eng. math, etc.)--and up here this would be University of
Washington--rather than going to an east coast small liberal arts
college, whose name you'd know. Her peers at that place were very, very
indulged, self-absorbed, and progressively dogmatic. You would be
socially excluded unless you publicly toed the line.
On 22 Oct 2023, Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> posted some news:uh3mr2$2ifn8$1@dont-email.me:
On 10/22/23 9:56 AM, Gracchus wrote:"...for typical lazy liberal kids addicted to smartphones..."
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:That one has been a godsend for underachievers.
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:"The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test,
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay,
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of >>>>>>>>> reading, writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students >>>>>>>>> of color"Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept
Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-s >>>>>>>>> tudents-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to >>>>>>>>> -graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html Fair is fair. >>>>>>>> There's gotta be a better way.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, >>>>>> to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it
should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those
skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them
through to spare them the emotional trauma of testing.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay
portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write
anything longer than a phone text without exposing their
inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
requirement.
just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added.
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids
can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays
was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why
they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as
well. One of the major changes from their end is cancelling the SAT
Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this
blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students,
and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion,
none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
Given the behavior of "black patrons" in the modern age, seems they were correct.* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (noThat's like saying "In the 1940s, most white-owned restaurants would
doubt that part is true) * most universities don't require it for
admission
not seat black patrons."
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many
felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students.
Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may
enhance perceived accessibility in standardised testing. For similar
reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well."
Okaaaay.
How do you justify hiring a US high school product - graduate no less, who can't properly fill out a job application online, or perform basic math without a calculator?
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 8:34:34 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:testing.
On 10/23/23 7:47 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 12:21:10 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
On 10/22/23 11:16 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 10:28:56 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote: >>>> On 10/22/23 10:07 AM, bmoore wrote:
On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:56:53 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:28:51 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:17:01 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:05:52 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:36:45 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:
Things have been heading in this direction for a while. They kept lowering standards so kids could pass without mastering those skills. Now they've dropped all pretense and will just push them through to spare them the emotional trauma ofOn Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 8:06:22 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:Heck no, we couldn't have that :-)
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 6:00:47 PM UTC-7, TT wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> "Oregon again says students don’t need to prove mastery of reading,Aside from making kids actually learn, right?
writing or math to graduate, citing harm to students of color"There's gotta be a better way.
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html
Fair is fair.
In the old days, kids could drop out of school at 16.
In the really old days, my grandma dropped of school even earlier, to help the family. She eventually got a GED.
It's a free country, but illiteracy is a severe drawback. And it should not be allowed with a high school diploma.
requirement.
Similarly, high school students were stumbling over the essay portion of the SAT because so many of them today can't write anything longer than a phone text without exposing their inadequacy. The solution? The SAT no longer has an essay
end is cancelling the SAT Easy test. This decision by the Board was taken last year. In this blog, we’ll cover this new change, what it means for the students, and how the SAT Essay Cancelled affect college admissions."Interesting. When I took the SAT in the 70s, there was no essay, just math/verbal. Then I heard an essay was added."The College Board, the organisation which administers the SAT test, is also ensuring the universities adapt to the times. That is why they’re making some changes to reduce the demands of students as well. One of the major changes from their
Then I heard it was removed. This could be, as you say, that kids can't write anymore. Or could it be that reading a million essays was too much for the SAT folks?
Do you know? I don't.
standardised testing. For similar reasons, the ACT might end up cancelling the ACT Essay, as well. "
https://leapscholar.com/blog/sat-essay-cancelled-essay-subject-test/
Notice it says "Easy test." That misspelling isn't mine. :)
It goes on to give supposed reasons they removed the essay portion, none of which make much sense. These include:
* the pandemic
* making it all multiple choice means not having to pay scorers (no doubt that part is true)
* most universities don't require it for admission
Then they add....
"Moreover, it would also pave the way for a level playing field. Many felt that SAT only catered to the privileged and affluent students. Getting rid of the SAT Essay and subject test requirements may enhance perceived accessibility in
Well, first and foremost you, the parent, must make yourself aware ofA reasonable algorithm. But there are some bad teachers at private schools and some good teachers at public schools, etc.No, I didn't.I have kids. Did you homeschool your kids? Nothing wrong with that if you've got the wherewithal.If you have kids all this makes for a very important decision regardingOkay. It is a bit unclear. But I agree that overall, the bar in the US has been lowered. Very sad.
Okaaaay.
how best to ensure that they get a well-rounded education, rather than a
state-sponsored indoctrination.
It's not as simple as sending them to a charter school, or a private >>>> school, because both often view themselves as progressive forces for >>>> change, and hence may well follow the lead of public education. The >>>> argument for home-schooling, if done with much objective forethought and
expertise-sharing among other parents of similar values, makes more and
more sense.
It's a shame, too, because the public system in CA, when I was a kid in
the 50s/60s, was reasonably effective. Because I have been a lifelong >>>> screw-off, I did not get all that was being offered to me. In
retrospect, in the early 70s, I can see some drift toward ideology in >>>> Econ and soft science classes I had, but prior to that, pretty centrist.
But...oh, well! :^)
I hope not to bore you, but I would like to describe how I see optimal >> pedagogy.
Say you've got a kid and you have unlimited resources.
You would find the very best person available who combines an excellent >> and demonstrated mastery of a given subject, plus a demonstrated
facility to mentor at the appropriate age, and let's say the subject is >> music.
You have this person interact with your child, one on one for the most >> part, but in groups sometimes if the mentor suggests that it would be of
benefit for your kid.
You do this for each identified subject.
When your kid reaches a given point, you may need to enhance this with a
new mentor and/or an enriched environment.
The simple way to understand this is that you have, at all times that >> makes sense, a one-on-one interaction with a top mentor in each topic >> until mastery by the kid is demonstrated.
The next best would be to again have a one-on-one situation, but with >> only one generalist mentor: someone who can do a thorough, but not
necessarily the best, job teaching each of the subject. Like Alexander >> with Aristotle.
Next best would be small group instruction with multiple specialist
mentors, then after than, small group with one generalist mentor.
In all above cases you, the parent, have individually interviewed the >> mentors, examined credentials in depth, and have decided that they are >> taking the direction you would want. In my case this would be hewing
closely to the subject matter, without presenting an evaluation of the >> subject matter in the sense of moral/ethical value. I would reserve
moral/ethical instruction for my wife and myself.
Now we take a big step...formal schools.
You'll have little to no direct control over the mentor, so you will
have to interview administrative personnel and read mission statements >> to try to find out what the priorities of the school are. You will
basically shop schools as if they were an investment property.
Where I live the parent used to be able to select between the public
schools in the district, under certain conditions, but this is no longer
allowed, so if you go public, you will just have to take the assigned >> school.
For private, you'll have at least a selection. Ultimately, in speaking >> with the head of the lower school where we sent our daughter, the head >> of school conveyed to me a deep understanding of how you pass
information to kids, and how to make it stick as well as it can. I had >> taught in the public system at the elementary level for 7 years in the >> 1970s,and I came away with not only opinions on the direction of public >> education, but also on specific methodology, and she basically told me, >> without any prompting, what I, myself, had concluded after years of
revisiting and thinking.
Added to that interview was the very public raison d'etre for the
particular school. "You're on the west coast but would like your child >> to be offered admittance to prestigious private schools on the east
coast? This is what we do routinely."
So I wanted the largest possible selection pool for her, and in
selecting this school as it turns out, her peers were as Garrison Kielor
said "all above average" and from homes where formal education was
greatly esteemed. This meant that her entire K-12 experience was with >> intelligent and motivated peers, and her own competitive nature caused >> he to strive for distinction.
There *are* weaknesses in this approach (unrealistic view of the "real >> world"), a drift toward progressive policies, but it was the best course
my wife and I could realistically take.
any shortcomings, and take action as needed.
Second thing here--and I'm sure you know it--most private school teacher are not union affiliated, nor do they have permanent contracts, as is
the case with public school teachers. Each teacher negotiates his/her
own terms of employment. There are multi-year contracts, but no "tenure" as it plays out in the public sector.
Also, interaction with other students matters too.Interaction is the same at public/private schools, the principal difference being *who* your kid is interacting with.
Interesting aside here. The school she went to K-12 had *greater* diversity than the public system here in PDX--there was even a human interest story in the main paper wryly noting this. This because there were large numbers of east Asian and S Asian kids, whose parents were a) professionals and b) who firmly believed in the value of education.
There were also a fair number of Iranians, and at HS the school had international boarding students (mostly Chinese, every now and then the odd Thai or S American)...maybe 20% of the HS population.
Overall, these parents had much higher expectancies than is commonly encountered, much higher than my own. But this served to piggy-back our daughter, who wanted to compete for academic credibility.
There were cases of recruitment of POC kids, mostly black, at the middle school/high school level. The success rate was not encouraging because
by the time they came into the school, they had already had their work habits formed in the public system, and were deeply unprepared for the routine expectancies for HS work.
Kids could--and did--wash out. In some cases over academics, in other cases over behavior. The school told them, basically, that it was obviously a poor fit for the child, and that they'd help in finding a school that fit the kid's needs more closely. I actually overheard such
a message on parent-teacher conference day in elementary school when we were there for our daughter's conference. We could hear it thru the open door, as we waited down the hall.
As a public school teacher this completely blew me away, since there isFair enough. I went to public high school and had a number of awesome teachers. But that was a while ago...
no such policy (with the exception of posing a physical risk to other students) in the public sector.
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