China has warned the US it is ready to fight "any type" of war after
hitting back against President Donald Trump's mounting trade tariffs.
The world's top two economies have edged closer to a trade war after
Trump slapped more tariffs on all Chinese goods. China quickly
retaliated imposing 10-15% tariffs on US farm products.
"If war is what the US wants, be it a tariff war, a trade war or any
other type of war, we're ready to fight till the end," China's embassy
said on X, reposting a line from a government statement on Tuesday.
It is some of the strongest rhetoric so far from China since Trump
became president and comes as leaders gathered in Beijing for the annual National People's Congress.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gmd3g2nzqo
See? bob moved the clock.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you advise caution?
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you advise caution?
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.They had presence there.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I believe also tried to colonize it?
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a pipe's dream,
On 08/03/2025 7.56, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had
to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it
that you want to do to them so that you advise caution?
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand
Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's
actually Chinese colony, was populated by Chinese in the last couple
of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and
Dutch I believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant
minority .Their independence from China is a pipe's dream,
"pipe's dream" would refer to the dream of a pipe. That would not make
much sense. The/A "dream of Pipe" would.
I would suggest either "a pipe dream", or "Pipe's dream". As in "25 is
Pipe's dream". You could maybe stretch it to "25 is a Pipe dream". 25
could be a Pipe dream and a pipe dream.
On 3/7/2025 11:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:> Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:>> Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.> > What is it thatAmerica wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you advise caution?> > Do you want to steal Taiwan island?> > Do you want to overthrow their government?Not sure how you can twist my remark to your questions, but
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:rAmerica wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you advise caution?> > Do you want to steal Taiwan island?> > Do you want to overthrow their government?Not sure how you can twist my remark to your questions, but
On 3/7/2025 11:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:> Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:>> Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.> > What is it that
It was a serious question with good faith.
1) what you personally feel
2) what do you hope your country does
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had
to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military aircraft.
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it
that you want to do to them so that you advise caution?
Interesting points...
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand
Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's
actually Chinese colony, was populated by Chinese in the last couple
of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and
Dutch I believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant
minority .Their independence from China is a pipe's dream, similar to
Navajo people seceding from USA.
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native inhabitants of Okinawa.
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China.
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control
over most of the territory, with the exception of Taiwan island where
defeated nationalist forces gathered.
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas
Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's
Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate
states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them
in Beijing once or if Beijing regime collapses?
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War
dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped
to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the
"real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China
that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want,
ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real
fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the
frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion, and most of the rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them
over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the
like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.
In article <vqhl93$6fgf$1@dont-email.me>,Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:>On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:>> Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:>>> Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down toChina in 2002(?) over>that downed USA military aircraft.>> >> >> >> What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you>advise caution?>>Interesting points...>>> >> >> >> Do you want to steal Taiwan
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China.>> >> Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the>exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered.the Confederate >states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent >functional analogy, I think.>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados>>> >>> I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.>> >> Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).>>There is a region in South America where refugees from
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:that downed USA military aircraft.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over
advise caution?
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you
Interesting points...
by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated
believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
pipe's dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native >inhabitants of Okinawa.
exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered.
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China.
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate
states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent >functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing regime collapses?
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War
dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped
to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the "real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China
that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want,
ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real
fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the
frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion, and most of the >rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them
over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the
like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:r
In article <vqhl93$6fgf$1@dont-email.me>,Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:>On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptiswrote:>> Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:>>> Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger
Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over>that downed USA military aircraft.>> >> >> >> What is it that
America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you>advise
caution?>>Interesting points...>>> >> >> >> Do you want to steal Taiwan island?>> >> Do you want to overthrow
their government?>> >> >> >> >> Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan
situation.>> >> In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony,
was populated>by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and
Dutch I>believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.>> >> But eventually Chinese swarmed it.>> >>
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a>pipe's
dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.>>My understanding is that they are more closely related to
the native >inhabitants of Okinawa.>>> >> >> >> The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of
China.>> >> Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory,
with the>exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered.>> >> Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's
Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.>> >> Taiwan (Republic of China)
never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).>>There is a region in South America where refugees from
the Confederate >states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent >functional analogy, I
think.>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados>>> >>> I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping
to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing regime collapses?>>Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in
the very old Cold War >dynamic of the west vs world communism.>>Then it went thru the phase where it was for the
US what the USSR hoped >to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.>>> >> It's surely a
dangerous game.>>It would be, now.>>> >> >> Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as
the "real" China.>> >> Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.>> >> Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the
1970s as Taiwan was expelled.>>Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China >that
sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.>>The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if
they want, >ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real >fast (5 years?) but have
wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the >frog in the pot cliche.>>They seem very uninterested in
territorial expansion, and most of the >rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them
over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the >like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.Ifthe PRC got their tentacles into Taiwan, they would ruin it the way they ruined HK. Taiwan is a free country, a
democracy. A cool place as anyone who has spent time there knows. That's why I givea shit.As an aside, when PRC
tourists visit Taiwan, some advice they get is to a) don't spit everywhere and b) don't askpeople how much money
they make the second you meet them.PRC is boorish. Taiwan is much more civiized.
What a clown. 😁
On 3/9/25 1:59 PM, bmoore wrote:
In article <vqhl93$6fgf$1@dont-email.me>,collapses?
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:that downed USA military aircraft.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over
advise caution?
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you
Interesting points...
by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated
believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
pipe's dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native
inhabitants of Okinawa.
exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered.
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China. >>>>
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate
states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent
functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing regime
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War
dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped
to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the "real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China
that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want,
ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real
fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the
frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion, and most of the
rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them
over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the
like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.
If the PRC got their tentacles into Taiwan, they would ruin it the way they ruined HK.
Taiwan is a free country, a democracy. A cool place as anyone who has spent time there knows. That's why I give
a shit.
As an aside, when PRC tourists visit Taiwan, some advice they get is to a) don't spit everywhere and b) don't ask
people how much money they make the second you meet them.
PRC is boorish. Taiwan is much more civiized.
All this could be strictly true, b., but I wouldn't think it's worth
risking a serious modern war over.
lIt's true. Have you ever been?
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:
lIt's true. Have you ever been?
It does not matter.
If your so into "international rules, order, law, etc" then why meddle in Chinese matter?
Your own government and the UN too recognize Beijing (People's Republic of China) and not Taiwan government
(Republic of China) as the real government of China so you should act accordingly.
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:
Twist the night away!
Which is not true?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China
("People's Republic of China" and "PRC" redirect here. For the present-day Republic of China, see Taiwan.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC)
...
After the end of World War II, the Chinese Civil War resumed. A series of Chinese Communist offensives in 1949
led to the capture of its capital Nanjing on 23 April and the subsequent defeat of the Nationalists on the
mainland. The Communists founded the People's Republic of China on 1 October. On 7 December 1949, Chiang
Kai-Shek evacuated his Nationalist government to Taiwan and made Taipei the temporary capital of the ROC.
Btw it's a "democracy"?
Martial law era (1949–1987)
Martial law, declared on Taiwan in May 1949, continued to be in effect until 1987, and was used to suppress
political opposition. During the White Terror, as the period is known, 140,000 people were imprisoned or
executed for being perceived as anti-KMT or pro-Communist.
Lol
Twist the night away!
On 3/8/2025 9:46 AM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:rcarefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over that downed USA military
On 3/7/2025 11:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:> Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:>> Trump needs to move
aircraft.> > What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so
that you advise caution?> > Do you want to steal Taiwan island?> > Do you want to overthrow their government?Not
sure how you can twist my remark to your questions, but each to their own.-- ---------------Scall5
It was a serious question with good faith.
1) what you personally feel
I would like to see those two countries work it out themselves.
2) what do you hope your country does
No military forces on Taiwan and let them pay for their national
defense. USA can't afford to have troops in scores of countries around
the world.
In article <vqn0ig$2q5$1@sunce.iskon.hr>,*skriptis <skriptis@post.t-com.hr> wrote:>-=-=-=-=-=->>bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:>> Twist the night away!>>>>Which is not true?>>>>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>>("People's Republic ofChina" and "PRC" redirect here. For the present-day Republic of China, see Taiwan.)>>>>>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan>>Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC)>>...>>After the end of World War II, the Chinese Civil War resumed. A series of
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:r
In article <vqn0ig$2q5$1@sunce.iskon.hr>,*skriptis <skriptis@post.t-com.hr> >wrote:>-=-=-=-=-=->>bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:>> Twist the night away!>>>>Which is nottrue?>>>>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>>("People's Republic of China" and "PRC" redirect here. For the
present-day Republic of China, see Taiwan.)>>>>>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan>>Taiwan, officially the
Republic of China (ROC)>>...>>After the end of World War II, the Chinese Civil War resumed. A series of Chinese
Communist offensives in 1949>led to the capture of its capital Nanjing on 23 April and the subsequent defeat of
the Nationalists on the>mainland. The Communists founded the People's Republic of China on 1 October. On 7
December 1949, Chiang>Kai-Shek evacuated his Nationalist government to Taiwan and made Taipei the temporary
capital of the ROC.>>>>>>Btw it's a "democracy"?>>>Martial law era (1949–1987)>>Martial law, declared on
Taiwan in May 1949, continued to be in effect until 1987, and was used to suppress>political opposition. During
the White Terror, as the period is known, 140,000 people were imprisoned or>executed for being perceived as
anti-KMT or pro-Communist.>>>>Lol1987? That's almost 40 years ago. More twisting. It's a democracy. First
elections were in 1996.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_elections_in_TaiwanBut why should I bother
telling the truth when you're certain to twist it?
But it's China, that's the point.
For sure. Status quo is the best solution so far. Taiwan won't declare independence and the PRC won't attack.
One country, two systems. Taiwan has its own currency, government etc. It's de facto independent. They just can't say so or the PRC gets their panties in a twist.
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:that downed USA military aircraft.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over
advise caution?
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you
Interesting points...
by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated
believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
pipe's dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native >inhabitants of Okinawa.
exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered.
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China.
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate
states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent >functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing regime collapses?
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War
dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped
to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the "real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China
that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want,
ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real
fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the
frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion,
and most of the
rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them
over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the
like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:
For sure. Status quo is the best solution so far. Taiwan won't declare independence and the PRC won't attack.
Dickhead, listen.
It's not possible to secede from itself.
It's logically impossible.
China can't secede from China.
It's bizzare wording.
If for example, you'd want "Taiwan" (Republic of China) to sever ties with mainland China (territory under
People's Republic of China control) the "Taiwan" or Republic of China could only do this:
They would have to "let mainland China go".
But I'm not sure how does one relinquish control over the territory you claim it's yours?
Sell them?
Can you just leave?
Is it possible for USA ie Washington to kick e.g. California out of the union if California doesn't want it?
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:
One country, two systems. Taiwan has its own currency, government etc. It's de facto independent. They justcan't say so or the PRC gets their panties in a twist.
No independence issue.
It's about two rival governments both claiming entire China (mainland + island Taiwan) is theirs.
People's Republic controls mainland.
Republic controls island.
Republic of China (Taiwan) can't "declare independence", it would be independence from themselves, that's nonsensical.
The island could declare independence and big baby PRC would go ballistic.
So they don't. Sounds like you are the one who doesn't understand the dynamics, subtley not being one of your strong points.
Then why are there organizations in Taiwan who want the government to declare independence? I guess they haven'tconsulted with you about their folly. You could make big bucks settin' 'em straight.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:
The island could declare independence and big baby PRC would go ballistic.
No they can't declare independence, they have no one to secede from.
Get it?
Who or what is the entity that they would secede from.
Hungary?
United Federation of Planets?
Someone else?
So they don't. Sounds like you are the one who doesn't understand the dynamics, subtley not being one of your strong points.
Actually I understand it pretty well.
PRC is "angry" because the whole point and the purpose of "Taiwan" is a covert western attempt to install ROC government over entire China once/if PRC government is sufficiently undermined and overthrown.
So "Taiwan" is effectively a shadow government.
On 3/10/25 10:39 AM, bmoore wrote:
In article <vqhl93$6fgf$1@dont-email.me>,
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:that downed USA military aircraft.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over
advise caution?
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you
Interesting points...
by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated
believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
pipe's dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native
inhabitants of Okinawa.
exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered.
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China. >>>>
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate
states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent
functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing regime collapses?
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War
dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped
to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the "real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China
that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want,
ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real
fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the
frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion,
They are all about "historical claims", like what Imperial China
controlled. Imperial China had Taiwan until the Japanese took it
in 1895.
And then there's the South China Sea dispute.
This is mostly the sort of rhetoric that two sides use as initial
bargaining positions.
It's similar to Israeli/Palestinian territorial claims.
I think that the reality of the situation is that mainland China does
not view Taiwan as a material threat, but their apparently successful >existence demonstrates to the Chinese people that looser
political/social control can be equally successful. So Taiwan offers a >philosophical choice that mainland China would not like its people to >consider.
It is in this sense a lot like Hong Kong *was*.
Now you already know that I don't think that anyone else besides those
with national territorial interests needs to be involved in decisions of
how another nation is governed. There's likely a threshold, somewhere,
where it can become a significant material threat (economic/territorial) >where a remote nation's national interest is directly threatened, but
we're not there, yet, in my opinion.
and most of the
rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them
over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the
like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.
On 3/10/25 12:19 PM, bmoore wrote:
In article <vqnb69$1fslh$1@dont-email.me>,
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/10/25 10:39 AM, bmoore wrote:
In article <vqhl93$6fgf$1@dont-email.me>,
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:that downed USA military aircraft.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over
advise caution?
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you
Interesting points...
by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated
believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
pipe's dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native >>>>> inhabitants of Okinawa.
exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered. >>>>>>
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China. >>>>>>
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate >>>>> states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent >>>>> functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing regime collapses?
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War >>>>> dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped >>>>> to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the "real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China >>>>> that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want, >>>>> ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real >>>>> fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the >>>>> frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion,
They are all about "historical claims", like what Imperial China
controlled. Imperial China had Taiwan until the Japanese took it
in 1895.
And then there's the South China Sea dispute.
This is mostly the sort of rhetoric that two sides use as initial
bargaining positions.
The only current choices are:
1) status quo
2) Taiwan accedes to PRC control
3) WWIII
They haven't come up with anything else since forever.
It's similar to Israeli/Palestinian territorial claims.
I think that the reality of the situation is that mainland China does
not view Taiwan as a material threat, but their apparently successful
existence demonstrates to the Chinese people that looser
political/social control can be equally successful. So Taiwan offers a
philosophical choice that mainland China would not like its people to
consider.
It is in this sense a lot like Hong Kong *was*.
I think it's more that the PRC views Taiwan as their territory, period. Did you know
that when China took Macau back from Portugal, it was nowhere near as big a deal as HK?
That's because there was no official agreement with China/Portugal like there was between
the Brits and Imperial China in the 19th century.
Which just goes to show that you're better off to not sign an agreement
if you think you might eventually gain the upper hand.
This can all be verified with a little research.
Interesting about China's relationship to Taiwan after about 1600. It
was something like England's relationship to Ireland, with the Han
Chinese like the English, and the aboriginal Taiwanese like the
unwashed Celtic bog-trotters.
Now you already know that I don't think that anyone else besides those
with national territorial interests needs to be involved in decisions of >>> how another nation is governed. There's likely a threshold, somewhere,
where it can become a significant material threat (economic/territorial) >>> where a remote nation's national interest is directly threatened, but
we're not there, yet, in my opinion.
One country's territorial interests can be another country's hell on earth. BTW, I am just talking
about my opinion, not what I think any other countries should do.
This was a very good discussion so far as I'm concerned. I learned a lot.
Thanks.
and most of the
rhetoric coming from the US has mainly been a cover for harassing them >>>>> over trade. We could hardly give a shit about Uygurs, Tibetans and the >>>>> like, and tough luck about Hong Kong.
-=-=-=-=-=-
bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) Wrote in message:
Then why are there organizations in Taiwan who want the government to declare independence? I guess theyhaven'tconsulted with you about their folly. You could make big bucks settin' 'em straight.
Post those links so we can see it.
In article <vqnfde$1glk1$1@dont-email.me>,
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/10/25 12:19 PM, bmoore wrote:regime collapses?
In article <vqnb69$1fslh$1@dont-email.me>,
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/10/25 10:39 AM, bmoore wrote:
In article <vqhl93$6fgf$1@dont-email.me>,
Sawfish <sawfish666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/7/25 9:56 PM, *skriptis wrote:
Scall5 <nospam@home.net> Wrote in message:that downed USA military aircraft.
Trump needs to move carefully with China. Even warmonger Bush Jr. had to back down to China in 2002(?) over
advise caution?
What is it that America wants to take away from China or what is it that you want to do to them so that you
Interesting points...
by Chinese in the last couple of centuries during the age of discovery, at the time Portuguese and Dutch I
Do you want to steal Taiwan island?
Do you want to overthrow their government?
Now that I mentioned Taiwan, I think many people don't even understand Taiwan situation.
In short, it's not even a historical core Han Chinese territory. It's actually Chinese colony, was populated
believe also tried to colonize it? They had presence there.
pipe's dream, similar to Navajo people seceding from USA.
But eventually Chinese swarmed it.
The Taiwanese natives are still there, but are insignificant minority .Their independence from China is a
My understanding is that they are more closely related to the native >>>>>> inhabitants of Okinawa.
exception of Taiwan island where defeated nationalist forces gathered. >>>>>>>
The issue with Taiwan is that is actually a rival government of China. >>>>>>>
Chinese communists won Chinese civil war and established full control over most of the territory, with the
Taiwan is not Taiwan, it's Republic of China government, whereas Beijing is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan (Republic of China) never "seceded" from China (People's Republic of China).
There is a region in South America where refugees from the Confederate >>>>>> states fled after they lost the US Civil war. That would be a decent >>>>>> functional analogy, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
I think USA is propping up government in Taiwan hoping to install them in Beijing once or if Beijing
Yes, but this was a reflexive action rooted in the very old Cold War >>>>>> dynamic of the west vs world communism.
Then it went thru the phase where it was for the US what the USSR hoped >>>>>> to make of Cuba in the 60s: a close first strike weapons base.
It's surely a dangerous game.
It would be, now.
Especially since USA and most of the world recognized Beijing as the "real" China.
Why wouldn't they, it's like 98% or 99% of China.
Beijing got Chinese UN seat in the 1970s as Taiwan was expelled.
Basically, I think all the US has wanted since the 90s is a quiet China >>>>>> that sits nicely at its desk and works on its assignment.
The friction over that period has been trade; they can, if they want, >>>>>> ruin any nation's domestic manufacturing base. They could do it real >>>>>> fast (5 years?) but have wisely chosen to do it incrementally, like the >>>>>> frog in the pot cliche.
They seem very uninterested in territorial expansion,
They are all about "historical claims", like what Imperial China
controlled. Imperial China had Taiwan until the Japanese took it
in 1895.
And then there's the South China Sea dispute.
This is mostly the sort of rhetoric that two sides use as initial
bargaining positions.
The only current choices are:
1) status quo
2) Taiwan accedes to PRC control
3) WWIII
They haven't come up with anything else since forever.
It's similar to Israeli/Palestinian territorial claims.
I think that the reality of the situation is that mainland China does
not view Taiwan as a material threat, but their apparently successful
existence demonstrates to the Chinese people that looser
political/social control can be equally successful. So Taiwan offers a >>>> philosophical choice that mainland China would not like its people to
consider.
It is in this sense a lot like Hong Kong *was*.
I think it's more that the PRC views Taiwan as their territory, period. Did you know
that when China took Macau back from Portugal, it was nowhere near as big a deal as HK?
That's because there was no official agreement with China/Portugal like there was between
the Brits and Imperial China in the 19th century.
Which just goes to show that you're better off to not sign an agreement
if you think you might eventually gain the upper hand.
Maybe. The history of the European colonialists in China is interesting.
The turning point, I think, was in 1984, when Deng told Margaret Thatcher that when
the lease on the New Territories expired, China was taking everything back. No longer
the sick man of Asia! I got to check out HK in 1995, two years before the handover. My
visit got cut short because my code in Taiwan needed fine-tuning :-)
This can all be verified with a little research.
Interesting about China's relationship to Taiwan after about 1600. It
was something like England's relationship to Ireland, with the Han
Chinese like the English, and the aboriginal Taiwanese like the
unwashed Celtic bog-trotters.
Now you already know that I don't think that anyone else besides those >>>> with national territorial interests needs to be involved in decisions of >>>> how another nation is governed. There's likely a threshold, somewhere, >>>> where it can become a significant material threat (economic/territorial) >>>> where a remote nation's national interest is directly threatened, but
we're not there, yet, in my opinion.
One country's territorial interests can be another country's hell on earth. BTW, I am just talking
about my opinion, not what I think any other countries should do.
This was a very good discussion so far as I'm concerned. I learned a lot.
Thanks.
Of course!
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