https://youtube.com/watch?v=KuG2LW3REzw&si=L6mQV7ShO2zYR99E
Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r
On 3/04/2025 7:32 am, PeteWasLucky wrote:> https://youtube.com/watch?v=KuG2LW3REzw&si=L6mQV7ShO2zYR99EDjokovic and Federer have played 5 final set tie breakers - Djokovic has won them all.
Djokovic just lost the final two days ago losing the two TBs.
He has been the king of TBs in general.
PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
He has been the king of TBs in general.
That's Whisper's point regarding Federer.
King of TBs but lost many final set TBs to Djokovic.
Fwiw, Djokovic fans love to use that to build his case and claim he has the "mental strength" or whatever superior to Federer.plays what he plays all the time and Federer is supposed to attack even more than he usually does?
I would refrain from that, it's simply this.
Djokovic has more solid game, fewer weaknesses and holes, and over the long run, and especially in critical moments, he can rely on his game and feel confident.
I think Federer gets a bit nervous because he obviously can't defend as well as Djokovic, so as a nominally offensive player, he's supposed to go on the offensive, but in those key moments when every mistake counts, it's easier to defend so Djokovic
And he's never been that good at it.
Whisper and my self argued that point for years.
It's not easy. The nerves kick in or some fear because he's not a true attacker in his heart.
He doesn't have the game or belief for that. It seems mental perhaps but I think it's wrong to argue Djokovic is mentally superior. It's just game style.
Sampras or Wawrinka, they have it what is necessary to penetrate Djokovic. They have the tools and the belief. They would still lose occasionally but it would 50-50.
Federer does not have, at least not to that extreme extent to impose himself as Sampras or Wawrinka would do.
That's why he shone in relatively unimportant matches with less on the line.
E.g. in 2015, Djokovic-Federer h2h was 4-3.
Federer, Dubai final
Djokovic, Indian Wells final
Djokovic, Wimbledon final
Federer, Cincinnati final
Djokovic, USO final
Federer, ATP Finals, round robin
Djokovic, ATP Finals final
That's basically even 4-3 h2h is as even as it can get, but aside from splitting ATP1000 finals (one each), Djokovic won the more important matches.
Wimbledon, USO, YEC vs Dubai and YEC RR.
Basically in such moments, Federer is reduced to his early 2000s period in which he was questioning his game and lacked clear focus what and how to do it.
On 4/04/2025 12:31 am, *skriptis wrote:
PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
He has been the king of TBs in general.
That's Whisper's point regarding Federer.
King of TBs but lost many final set TBs to Djokovic.
Fwiw, Djokovic fans love to use that to build his case and claim he
has the "mental strength" or whatever superior to Federer.
I would refrain from that, it's simply this.
Djokovic has more solid game, fewer weaknesses and holes, and over the
long run, and especially in critical moments, he can rely on his game
and feel confident.
I think Federer gets a bit nervous because he obviously can't defend
as well as Djokovic, so as a nominally offensive player, he's supposed
to go on the offensive, but in those key moments when every mistake
counts, it's easier to defend so Djokovic plays what he plays all the
time and Federer is supposed to attack even more than he usually does?
And he's never been that good at it.
Whisper and my self argued that point for years.
It's not easy. The nerves kick in or some fear because he's not a true
attacker in his heart.
He doesn't have the game or belief for that. It seems mental perhaps
but I think it's wrong to argue Djokovic is mentally superior. It's
just game style.
Sampras or Wawrinka, they have it what is necessary to penetrate
Djokovic. They have the tools and the belief. They would still lose
occasionally but it would 50-50.
Federer does not have, at least not to that extreme extent to impose
himself as Sampras or Wawrinka would do.
That's why he shone in relatively unimportant matches with less on the
line.
E.g. in 2015, Djokovic-Federer h2h was 4-3.
Federer, Dubai final
Djokovic, Indian Wells final
Djokovic, Wimbledon final
Federer, Cincinnati final
Djokovic, USO final
Federer, ATP Finals, round robin
Djokovic, ATP Finals final
That's basically even 4-3 h2h is as even as it can get, but aside from
splitting ATP1000 finals (one each), Djokovic won the more important
matches.
Wimbledon, USO, YEC vs Dubai and YEC RR.
Basically in such moments, Federer is reduced to his early 2000s
period in which he was questioning his game and lacked clear focus
what and how to do it.
Good analysis.
When you say;
"Djokovic has more solid game, fewer weaknesses and holes, and over the
long run, and especially in critical moments, he can rely on his game
and feel confident."
Yes spot on. That makes him a better tennis player overall. Sure it's nice to have variety, style etc but that doesn't make you a better
player if we judge it by results. And end of the day that counts the
most. We all have our personal faves based on style, personality
whatever - mine is McEnroe - but objectively we can't elevate above
results when it comes to goat/boat discussions.
On 4/4/25 4:07 PM, Scall5 wrote:
On 4/4/2025 3:51 AM, Whisper wrote:
On 4/04/2025 12:31 am, *skriptis wrote:
PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
He has been the king of TBs in general.
That's Whisper's point regarding Federer.
King of TBs but lost many final set TBs to Djokovic.
Fwiw, Djokovic fans love to use that to build his case and claim he
has the "mental strength" or whatever superior to Federer.
I would refrain from that, it's simply this.
Djokovic has more solid game, fewer weaknesses and holes, and over
the long run, and especially in critical moments, he can rely on his
game and feel confident.
I think Federer gets a bit nervous because he obviously can't defend
as well as Djokovic, so as a nominally offensive player, he's
supposed to go on the offensive, but in those key moments when every
mistake counts, it's easier to defend so Djokovic plays what he
plays all the time and Federer is supposed to attack even more than
he usually does?
And he's never been that good at it.
Whisper and my self argued that point for years.
It's not easy. The nerves kick in or some fear because he's not a
true attacker in his heart.
He doesn't have the game or belief for that. It seems mental perhaps
but I think it's wrong to argue Djokovic is mentally superior. It's
just game style.
Sampras or Wawrinka, they have it what is necessary to penetrate
Djokovic. They have the tools and the belief. They would still lose
occasionally but it would 50-50.
Federer does not have, at least not to that extreme extent to impose
himself as Sampras or Wawrinka would do.
That's why he shone in relatively unimportant matches with less on
the line.
E.g. in 2015, Djokovic-Federer h2h was 4-3.
Federer, Dubai final
Djokovic, Indian Wells final
Djokovic, Wimbledon final
Federer, Cincinnati final
Djokovic, USO final
Federer, ATP Finals, round robin
Djokovic, ATP Finals final
That's basically even 4-3 h2h is as even as it can get, but aside
from splitting ATP1000 finals (one each), Djokovic won the more
important matches.
Wimbledon, USO, YEC vs Dubai and YEC RR.
Basically in such moments, Federer is reduced to his early 2000s
period in which he was questioning his game and lacked clear focus
what and how to do it.
Good analysis.
When you say;
"Djokovic has more solid game, fewer weaknesses and holes, and over
the long run, and especially in critical moments, he can rely on his
game and feel confident."
Yes spot on. That makes him a better tennis player overall. Sure
it's nice to have variety, style etc but that doesn't make you a
better player if we judge it by results. And end of the day that
counts the most. We all have our personal faves based on style,
personality whatever - mine is McEnroe - but objectively we can't
elevate above results when it comes to goat/boat discussions.
Solid points. The players I most loved watching was the 1980 and
1990's serve and volleyers. Great visual tennis!
Edberg, rafter, Mac, etc?
On 4/4/2025 7:25 PM, Sawfish wrote:
On 4/4/25 4:07 PM, Scall5 wrote:
Solid points. The players I most loved watching was the 1980 and
1990's serve and volleyers. Great visual tennis!
Edberg, rafter, Mac, etc?
Oh hell yes; I even used Mac's service motion for a long time and maybe
should revisit his stance when he began (these days begins) his serve.
Might be too difficult for me these days with all that twisting he did.
Sampras, of course, was the master at power serve-and-volley tennis.
On 5/04/2025 11:53 am, Scall5 wrote:> On 4/4/2025 7:25 PM, Sawfish wrote:>> On 4/4/25 4:07 PM, Scall5 wrote:>>>>>> Solid points. The players I most loved watching was the 1980 and >>> 1990's serve and volleyers. Great visual tennis!>>>> Edberg, rafter,Mac, etc?> > Oh hell yes; I even used Mac's service motion for a long time and maybe Lol me too : )He's why I started playing.I still mimic his serve motion at home just stretching my back out.> should revisit his stance when he began (these days begins)
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