It appears to be BAAACK. Please do not feed the troll.

In the off-chance that this is NOT Jimmy Neutron in its latest incarnation:

a) It is really, really stupid to run any battery 'down to zero'. They are chemical engines that are damaged by this behavior. Without exception.
b) Should you have the discretionary income and time to pursue this activity anyway, you certainly do not need approval from this or any other venue.
c) Most of us here (OK, at least a few of us here) well understand the nature of batteries as chemical engines and do not need to re-invent the wheel.
d) Those that do not deserve exactly what follows.

Again, please DO NOT feed the troll!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:12:11 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-05-05 19:19, Andy Burnelli wrote:

I am testing if it takes _longer_ to "fast charge" a phone if you _frequently_ let the battery run down to zero - and it seems to be.

Somewhat related, I saw this past Saturday an article about a study
testing charging batteries to full (of electric cars), or only a percent.

The article is in Spanish, but you can use google translate to read it.
It points to a study in German, but I do not see its link.

Seems that the best is to limit the battery cycle to 20%/80%.

That is true. My Tesla allows me to program the charging to whatever level I want. I plug in twice a week and it stops charging at 80%. 80% gives me about 250 miles of useful range. Most manufacturers limit the amount of charge to a specific
percentage of the pack's capacity to prevent owners from charging to 100% every single night.

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AJL wrote:
===========

Jeff Liebermann = pedant wrote:

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that, but since
literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
definition.

Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell phones these days according to several dictionaries.

** That "battery" refers to one or more cells has been the norm for over 70 years.
Technical docs and people use the word "cell" to refer to one example or the particular type.
Not hard to accommodate both meanings.



..... Phil

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sms wrote:
===========

" Ni-cad cells are less efficient when slow-charged (see <https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-407-charging-nickel-cadmium>)."

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned? All I find is:
To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop, especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
full charge at a different time point."

"Fast charging improves the charge efficiency.

** Shame that is NOT what YOU wrote earlier.

snip, snip snip snip ......


..... Phil

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Fifty-two (52) replies in pursuit of idiocy. Jimmy Neutron strikes again!

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On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 12:31:17 AM UTC-4, Andy Burnelli wrote:

Take a look at the Scotty Kilmer video below...

Kilmer is a backyard mechanic at best who doesn't know any more about, well, *anything* than any one else. I wouldn't let this guy change the oil on a car.

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Long thread, I may have missed this above, but:

Laptops are notorious for having bricked batteries. Sometimes replacement is cheap, sometimes not.

Battery life is supposedly longest when charge is maintained between 20% and 80%. The way most of us use a laptop is to leave it plugged in all the time and treat it like a desktop. I have a couple we use that way where I've removed the battery after
it bricked. Anyway, the most common use of a laptop seems to be inherently hard on the battery. My millennial daughter almost never has hers plugged in while in use though.

I've read that with modern auto battery chemistry, every time you run it down flat you lose one half life.

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On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:13:27 AM UTC-4, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:

I've read that with modern auto battery chemistry, every time you run it down flat you lose one half life.

If you're talking about lead acid car batteries, then running them way down even just a couple of times is very bad for them. While discharged, they begin to sulfate almost immediately. Even a fairly new battery can be easily weakened severely by
leaving it discharged for a fairly short amount of time.

EV batteries are much more tolerant of discharge than lead acid batteries are, but of course are not immune. There are plenty of published tests when determining ultimate range of EVs where they are run to zero. In the short term at least, they don't
seem to suffer any indicated range loss. I don't know if any testing has been done of running an EV to zero and leaving it like that for 6 months. I've read that LiPo cells are even better at tolerating extreme discharging and charging at the cost of
some capacity. Some Teslas are being shipped with LiPo battery packs.

When my android phone crapped out, my buddy gave me one that belonged to his deceased daughter. The phone was only about 6 months old when she passed, and it was completely discharged for two years when I got it. I've been using it about a year now and
doesn't show any sign of battery life issues. Back when I was doing camcorder repairs, batteries that were new one Christmas were shot the next after sitting for a year without being charged.

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On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:43:33 PM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:

No iPhone will not charge at all when off.

Funny thing, my wife's iPhone 13, and the two before that charged just fine when off.

Yep. Not only will all phones charge when off, they often charge faster when off although not dramatically so.

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No iPhone will not charge at all when off.

Funny thing, my wife's iPhone 13, and the two before that charged just fine when off.

https://www.iphonefaq.org/archives/97310

Jimmy Neutron is proud of itself! All this BS, stupidity and absolute crap over nothing whatsoever of substance!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 11:54:11 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:

But the reality is that the voltage on battery chargers is
regulated so it does not exceed the maximum safe voltage.

Most of those old-school big honking garage chargers are not regulated at all. Just a big honking multi-tap transformer and a big honking rectifier on a big honking heat sink.

Small consumer chargers and float chargers can be regulated.

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On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 11:46:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Here's a guaranteed to work method of raising a battery from the dead: "Brilliant technique of lead acid battery restoration" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI> (11:22)
"Amazing Restoration Technique of an Old Lead Acid Battery" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0IAwOIwXo> (10:49)
"Dead Old Battery Restoration - How To Repair Battery" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gka20Vwp9rk> (19:15)
"Amazing Technique of Making Lead Acid Battery Plates & Restoring a
Dead Battery"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdMWBv8kAo0> (14:34)
The last URL has some contact info: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Home-Improvement/Mughal-Battery-Service-903845953074983/>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Those vids are great. Proves the old adage that where there's a will there's a way.

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On Fri, 13 May 2022 07:20:19 -0700 (PDT), "ohg...@gmail.com" <ohger1s@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 11:46:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Here's a guaranteed to work method of raising a battery from the dead:
"Brilliant technique of lead acid battery restoration"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI> (11:22)
"Amazing Restoration Technique of an Old Lead Acid Battery"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0IAwOIwXo> (10:49)
"Dead Old Battery Restoration - How To Repair Battery"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gka20Vwp9rk> (19:15)
"Amazing Technique of Making Lead Acid Battery Plates & Restoring a
Dead Battery"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdMWBv8kAo0> (14:34)
The last URL has some contact info:
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Home-Improvement/Mughal-Battery-Service-903845953074983/>

Those vids are great. Proves the old adage that where there's a will there's a way.

Thanks. I listed only a small number of those claiming to repair,
restore, rejuvenate or resurrect batteries. Seems to be a popular
occupation in 3rd world countries. Most of the videos seems to be
from Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and the USA. More: <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dead+battery+repair+restore>

What most videos don't show are any clues as to:
1. How to dispose of the old sulfuric acid.
2. How do deal with the lead sulfide residue, old separators, lead
oxide slag, etc.
3. Testing the seals. Hot melt glue isn't very strong and will
eventually leak.
4. Shock mounting the internal cells so that the vehicle vibration
doesn't shake the cells excessively.
5. Safety equipment and procedures.

When I was young and stupid, I rebuilt a few batteries in a similar
manner. Some worked for a few months. One exploded from a hydrogen
explosion. Most of them leaked electrolyte because I was using tar as
a sealant. I recommend that everyone interested try rebuilding one
battery. That's one and no more. I suspect that the effort necessary
to do it correctly, and the generally mediocre results, will
discourage any further attempts.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:50:15 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

3. Testing the seals. Hot melt glue isn't very strong and will
eventually leak.

I have zero experience with hot melt glue on batteries, and my comment isn't about using hot glue in this way, but my experience with hot glue is that most of the time, hot glue failure is due to improper heating. What I do is to preheat the surface to
which the glue is to be applied with a heat gun (assuming the material can handle the heat). It takes much longer for the glue to set, but I've found the glue is *much* stronger and its adhesion far better when it it's allowed to get to a much thinner
liquid than the thicker goop which is what generally comes out of a cheap or hobby type hot glue gun. Even if the glue gun does a good job getting the glue hot enough, too often the surface to be bonded acts like a heatsink and cools the glue before the
pieces can be assembled. Preheating the surface really helps to get the glue thin.

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On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 2:18:16 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 14 May 2022 13:01:08 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

In article <3rjv7htsgmnt4dp2j...@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

Older automobile electrical system testers used a carbon pile load.
Basically, a big resistor.

they did, except that those are now obsolete.

The mechanic who works on my 2001 Subaru has one with a carbon pile
load. I know because I've repaired it a few times. Several of the
auto shops that I frequent also have ancient chargers. Sorry to
report, but the old stuff doesn't just disappear.

Modern testers use an active load. Both
get rather hot when testing a battery.

nope. modern testers do not get warm, let alone hot.

they perform an instantaneous check which measures cold cranking amps >(cca), internal resistance, health (soh), state of charge (soc) and
more.

<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mjeZjNQMS._AC_SL1500_.jpg> ><https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71w0q0qP13L._AC_SL1200_.jpg> ><https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/618nFOfH+7L._AC_SL1000_.jpg>

Yep. I totally forgot about ESR battery testers. I use an ESR meter
to testing batteries. However, it was made for testing capacitors,
not batteries. Thanks for the correction.

I also have a battery discharge tester: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg> The graphs it produces are far better than anything produced on a
typical ESR tester. For example: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg>
I don't have the optional large heat sink and load necessary to test automobile batteries. However, it does well for testing and matching
LiIon cells:
<http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php>

They usually include a spring
loaded "test" switch to prevent leaving it on and setting fire to the
tester. A good battery will usually survive, while the shop burns to
the ground. Notice the spring return toggle switch:
<https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3180-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000F5HU6C/>

old school.

Guilty as charged. I'm 74 years old and officially retired. I borrow
one of these when I need one. <https://www.harborfreight.com/100a-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html>

Incidentally, someone possibly in this newsgroup, mentioned that none
of my test equipment was newer than about 1985. That's really old
school: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/test-equip-mess.jpg>
I wouldn't mind having the latest and greatest, but if the old stuff
works, it's good enough.

there's no need to destroy things to learn, although it's easy to
destroy stuff without learning anything.

True. However, the cost of destroying something tends to reinforce
the learning experience. Incidentally, the slogan came from my
college days, where the school motto was "Learn by Doing".
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Whoops - Previous message got accidently sent before It was completed.
Is the battery discharge tester you have home brew or COTS?

I've been tempted to build my own but other things seem to push it lower on the stack. Back in the day, I designed and built a computer-based battery charge-discharge system for a supplier of batteries & equipment for underground mining. The customer
had some interesting life-cycle tests they wanted to run on incoming battery stock, such as take 10 batteries and have each battery go through a custom charge - discharge cycle, and mixing up the charge-discharge tests. They also wanted to run life
cycle charge-discharge test for as long as two years. The test system had to support up to 200 batteries and of course capture data for each test (e.g. voltage, temp, cell temp, ambient temp, etc. Another requirement was they wanted the computer system
to have zero downtime so had to design a hot standby system Fun project. Anyway, just curious about your system.
Thanks,
J

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On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:35:21 -0700 (PDT), Three Jeeps
<jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 2:18:16 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I also have a battery discharge tester:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg> >> The graphs it produces are far better than anything produced on a
typical ESR tester. For example:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg>
I don't have the optional large heat sink and load necessary to test
automobile batteries. However, it does well for testing and matching
LiIon cells:
<http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php>

Whoops - Previous message got accidently sent before It was completed.
Is the battery discharge tester you have home brew or COTS?

I listed the manufacturer in the my posting. However, I didn't
include the model number because it is not the latest: <http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php>
I have a CBA-II.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/NiMH/cba-II.jpg>
The current version is a CBA-V for $190. However, these are only good
up to 200 watts. Higher power versions are available, but you won't
like the price. There's also a problem with higher power batteries.
The designers decided to save a few dollars and NOT provide a four
terminal Kelvin bridge voltage sense system: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-terminal_sensing>
The result is that any voltage drop in the cables between the
discharge tester and the battery is substracted from the battery
voltage. This creates accuracy problems at high power levels. I've
been told that this was fixed in later units, but until I see a photo
with 4 power wires (two heavy gauge, two smaller) I don't believe it.

Most of what I've done with the CBA-II was characterize LiIon 18650
cells, match cells, and test various small battery packs for 2way
radios. Also, I did some rapid charge tests on NiCd and NiMH cells.
The dicharge tester doesn't have a battery charger feature, but was
useful for determining if my rapid charge method was decreasing
capacity and/or cycle life.

Some more random test results. The NiMH tests were to demonstrate
that a brand new NiMH cell will need to be charge cycled before it can
attain a full rated charge.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/NiMH/> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/>
I have more test results, but can't seem to find them.

You'll probably find a better review in the various flashlight forums: <https://www.candlepowerforums.com>
<https://budgetlightforum.com>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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133 posts, so far, for no discernably new, useful or effective information other than uninspired navel gazing. Not quite a record given all this originated with Jimmy Neutron.

The lesson remains: Please do not feed the trolls.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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