I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor. https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, youkidding@yahoo.com says...

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor. https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

If we did not have conductors and insulators we would not have
electronics! Mobile electrons are current; most are not.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/26/2022 2:02 AM, Mike Coon wrote:

In article <svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, youkidding@yahoo.com says...

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

If we did not have conductors and insulators we would not have
electronics! Mobile electrons are current; most are not.

Well said. To further illustrate what you said, this might be helpful to
the OP, it takes things a small step further. https://actingcolleges.org/library/acting-questions/read/39041-is-isopropyl-alcohol-electrically-conductive

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26 Feb 22 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org
<youkidding@yahoo.com> (YK) wrote:

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor. https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-curren t

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular 'construction'. See ceramics vs. metal



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

--
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/26/2022 2:44 AM, Mike S wrote:

To further illustrate what you said, this might be helpful to
the OP, it takes things a small step further. https://actingcolleges.org/library/acting-questions/read/39041-is-isopropyl-alcohol-electrically-conductive

Thanks for that link which had at the bottom this question.

"Can a rubbing alcohol conduct an electric current?
The conductivity of isopropyl alcohol (which is commonly the major component
of rubbing alcohol) is typically 6 uS.m−1, so it is very low (typical value for a metal would be multiple millions of S.m−1). So the answer is: yes, but it just does it to an EXTREMELY small extent, so small that most people
would regard it as non-conductive."

But that's pure alcohol.

I had also forgotten that there 30% water by volume in rubbing alcohol:
alcohol = 62.4% (w/w) or 70.0% (v/v) https://www.thoughtco.com/calculate-volume-percent-concentration-609534 https://www.bode-science-center.com/center/hand-hygiene/hand-disinfection/detail-hand-disinfection/article/ethanol-concentration-table-what-is-the-percentage-by-volume-or-weight.html

Normal water is known to be conductive when not pure, but I can't find out
if they put distilled water into rubbing alcohol or "regular" salty water.

It says the alcohol is not ionic, so, it's of low (essentially no)
conductivity (as it's covalent so the electrons aren't all that free to
move).

So neither the water (if distilled) nor the alcohol will be very much conductive, which is why it's used to clean electronics, it says. Plus it
says that it doesn't dry as quickly as some (and faster than others), so
it's in an ideal range for cleaning sticky keyboards while in use (which is what I was using it for at the time I posed the question to you).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 22:19:14 -0500, YK <youkidding@yahoo.com> wrote:

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor. >https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

Because the molecular structure of alcohol (C2H5OH) does not have any
free or loosely bound electrons or holes where free electrons
previously lived to conduct electrons. This covers the basics:
"Conductors, Insulators, and Electron Flow" <https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-1/conductors-insulators-electron-flow/>

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing >alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the >conductivity is super low).

Absolutes don't work well in practical situations. While 99.99999%
pure alcohol might not conduct any measurable electricity, a few
percentage points less will likely have sufficient impurities to
conduce a tiny amount of electricity. The difference between
conductive and non-conductive depend on where you round off the
measurements.

But why?
It has electrons.

In order to conduct, it has to have free or unbound electrons. Alcohol
doesn't have any.

Electrons are current.

Nope. Electrons are energy carriers. See the allaboutcircuits.com
article above.

Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

I once did that with a CRT display and an alcohol spray bottle. It
wasn't much of a flash/bang, but sufficient to get my attention. Also,
alcohol tends to smear the silk screened lettering from the key caps.
If you're using alcohol to remove flux with a brush, the metal ring or
handle can easily short something on the keyboard PCB. Alcohol might
not be conductive, but the crud the collects on the PCB, dissolved in
alcohol, might be conductive. Lastly, pushing the keys while the
computah is in operation is like the cat sleeping on the keyboards.
Eventually, the wrong key gets pressed and your data or settings are
trashed:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=cat+on+keyboard&tbm=isch>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <Foclne7zQoB@allinger-307049.user.uni-berlin>, all2001
@spambog.com says...

On 26 Feb 22 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org
<youkidding@yahoo.com> (YK) wrote:

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor. https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-curren
t

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular 'construction'. See ceramics vs. metal

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no electrons?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 27 Feb 22 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article MPG.3c855c2cd17af0139896a2@usenet.plus.net
<gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> (Mike Coon) wrote:

In article <Foclne7zQoB@allinger-307049.user.uni-berlin>, all2001 @spambog.com says...

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and
non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular
'construction'. See ceramics vs. metal

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no electrons?

Sorry, I'm wrong. I've looked only to the ultrahot cernels loosing their electron cloud. But the electrons didn't disappear. So I withdraw my wrong
1st sentece.

Thanks for correcting me.



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

--
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
----------------------------------------

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and
non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular >> 'construction'. See ceramics vs. metal

Even ceramics can become good conductors when heated to a red glow.

Bakelite, as used for tube bases, can become alarmingly conductive at about 200C.

...... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bakelite, as used for tube bases, can become alarmingly conductive at about 200C.

https://www.restaurantnorman.com/is-bakelite-highly-inflammable/

Support for your statement?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <sviovi$1mgo$1@gioia.aioe.org>, youkidding@yahoo.com says...

On 2/27/2022 7:33 AM, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no >> electrons?

Sorry, I'm wrong. I've looked only to the ultrahot cernels loosing their electron cloud. But the electrons didn't disappear. So I withdraw my wrong 1st sentece.

I thought plasmas were ONLY electrons.

From Wikipedia: "Plasma is one of the four fundamental states of matter.
It contains a significant portion of charged particles ? ions and/or electrons."

I don't think the space-charge of electrons as given off from the hot
cathode of vacuum tubes would count as a plasma, but the glowing neon in
an old indicator bulb would.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/27/2022 7:33 AM, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no
electrons?

Sorry, I'm wrong. I've looked only to the ultrahot cernels loosing their electron cloud. But the electrons didn't disappear. So I withdraw my wrong 1st sentece.

I thought plasmas were ONLY electrons.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/26/2022 8:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In order to conduct, it has to have free or unbound electrons. Alcohol doesn't have any.

That must be why my keyboard can be cleaned while I am using it.
I pull off a key and spray alcohol/water 70/30 solution until it is soaked. Then I put the key back on & continue using it which loosens up the sticky grime.
All the while I'm connected thanks to alcohol not conducting (much) current.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Phil Allison wrote:
===============

'construction'. See ceramics vs. metal

Even ceramics can become good conductors when heated to a red glow.

** See :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBnICnUhTZI

Pure glass conducts like a metal when glowing hot - about 800 to 1000C

Bakelite, as used for tube bases, can become alarmingly conductive at about 200C.

** FYI " alarmingly" = tube bias runs away.

Only takes about 20Mohms of leakage.
Octal power tubes have screen and grid pins adjacent.


..... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:39:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 22:19:14 -0500, YK <youki...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But why?
It has electrons.

In order to conduct, it has to have free or unbound electrons. Alcohol doesn't have any.

Electrons are current.

Nope. Electrons are energy carriers. See the allaboutcircuits.com
article above.

Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

That's a good article and answers the question well.

One thing it doesn't really address is that the charge carriers need not be electrons, and in an alcohol solution there may be other charge carriers available.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

One thing it doesn't really address is that the charge carriers need not be electrons, and in an alcohol solution there may be other charge carriers available.

"May" is a bit of a weasel-word. Pure alcohol has no unbound electrons, and no potential for ionization. Admixtures, dilutants and contaminants are an entirely different issue, and shame on the user to not account for this in their choice of solvents
and/or cleaners.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, Peter W. wrote:

One thing it doesn't really address is that the charge carriers need not be electrons, and in an alcohol solution there may be other charge carriers available.

"May" is a bit of a weasel-word. Pure alcohol has no unbound electrons, and no potential for ionization. Admixtures, dilutants and contaminants are an entirely different issue, and shame on the user to not account for this in their choice of solvents

and/or cleaners.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Exactly. As soon as the alcohol has dissolved something - and how would it clean if it did not? then it very likely contains something that has ionized. There not need be any free electrons as long as the ions can move.

And if there's nothing to dissolve, then why clean at all? Just blow it out with some canned air.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

timoth...@gmail.com wrote:

=========================

Exactly. As soon as the alcohol has dissolved something - and how would it clean if it did not?
then it very likely contains something that has ionized.
There not need be any free electrons as long as the ions can move.

** Anything handled by human hands is likely to have oil, acid and salt on it.
( Notice how finger prints corrode some metal surfaces )
Salt and acid will make the solution slightly conductive, long as it contains some water.

FYI one of the worst common spillages onto electronics is orange juice.
Yoghurt comes close too.


... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <b7823815-bd04-441f-a322-9a2b391ca6cen@googlegroups.com>, pallison49@gmail.com says...

timoth...@gmail.com wrote:

=========================

Exactly. As soon as the alcohol has dissolved something - and how would it clean if it did not?
then it very likely contains something that has ionized.
There not need be any free electrons as long as the ions can move.

** Anything handled by human hands is likely to have oil, acid and salt on it.
( Notice how finger prints corrode some metal surfaces )
Salt and acid will make the solution slightly conductive, long as it contains some water.

FYI one of the worst common spillages onto electronics is orange juice.
Yoghurt comes close too.

... Phil

Perhaps why electricity is called "juice"? ;-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 10:19:26 PM UTC-5, YK wrote:

Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

It has electrons.

Electrons are current.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't think that's complete. Other things can be current besides electrons, and in liquids wouldn't the current be from other than electrons?

Water conducts very slightly, because a small amount of molecules are dissociated into H+ and OH-. These would travel through the fluid to the electrodes. I would imagine a small amount of isopropyl alcohol dissociates into C3H7+ and OH- also.

The EEs I knew talked about holes carrying current, I never really grasped that but didn't need to.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:49:55 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't think that's complete.
Other things can be current besides electrons, and in liquids
wouldn't the current be from other than electrons?

Nope. Just electrons (and holes). The electrons can be part of many
elements and molecules. The electrons are what "moves" in solutions
and wires. I don't know of any molecule or ion that will "move" in
the same manner as electrons. Electrons will move (conduct) through a
solid wire, through a conductive liquid, and through an ionized gas,
all connected in series without any chemical or physical change.
Electrons can even be convinced to flow through a vacuum. When you
talk about conductivity, you're really talking about the movement (displacement) of electrons (or holes) through a solid, liquid, or
gas.

Water conducts very slightly, because a small amount of molecules
are dissociated into H+ and OH-. These would travel through the
fluid to the electrodes.

Nope. The ions do not travel through a solid wire.

Distilled water is an insulator. <https://archive.epa.gov/water/archive/web/html/vms59.html>
<quote>
Conductivity is measured in micromhos per centimeter (µmhos/cm) or
microsiemens per centimeter (µs/cm). Distilled water has a
conductivity in the range of 0.5 to 3 µmhos/cm. The conductivity of
rivers in the United States generally ranges from 50 to 1500 µmhos/cm.
Studies of inland fresh waters indicate that streams supporting good
mixed fisheries have a range between 150 and 500 µhos/cm. Conductivity
outside this range could indicate that the water is not suitable for
certain species of fish or macroinvertebrates. Industrial waters can
range as high as 10,000 µmhos/cm.
</quote>

Take a look at TDS (total dissolved solids) meters. <https://www.google.com/search?q=TDS+meter&tbm=isch>
These are commonly used to test for the total amount of crud in our
drinking water. Mostly, they react to the HCl (hydrochloric acid)
added to our water to kill off bacteria. There are also pH meters,
that will indicate if your favorite beverage is acidic or alkaline.

Incidentally, distilled (or de-ionized) water is tasteless. The
quality of good drinking water is not in the water, but rather in the
ionized additives.

I would imagine a small amount of isopropyl alcohol dissociates
into C3H7+ and OH- also.

Nope. Alcohols do not easily ionize. I'll spare you the organic
chemistry involved:
"THE IONIZATION OF ALCOHOLS"
<https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01659a002>
In any case, like water, pure alcohol is an insulator because it
doesn't have any loosely bound electrons to promote conduction.

The EEs I knew talked about holes carrying current, I never really
grasped that but didn't need to.

Think of holes as the temporary lack of a loosely bound electron.
Holes are a term of convenience. Electric current was originally
declared to flow from + to - by Ben Franklin in about 1746. It wasn't
until 1897 that J.J. Thomson discovered the electron. 150 years of
doing it wrong was difficult to fix. The invention of semiconductors
and doping in about 1950, which uses both electron and hole flow
models, made things worse. So, electronics is still stuck with Ben
Franklin's hole flow, while physics and chemistry have successfully
switched to electron flow.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff:

You are micturating vertically onto a braided convenience. For some the "science" is too much to handle in light of infinite 'what if' speculations.

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.

Schiller

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 6:49:59 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 10:19:26 PM UTC-5, YK wrote:

Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't think that's complete. Other things can be current besides electrons, and in liquids wouldn't the current be from other than electrons?

Water conducts very slightly, because a small amount of molecules are dissociated into H+ and OH-. These would travel through the fluid to the electrodes. I would imagine a small amount of isopropyl alcohol dissociates into C3H7+ and OH- also.

Rubbing alcohol is hygroscopic (it absorbs water from normal ambient air). So, cleaning
with alcohol will usually, after the alcohol residue evaporates, leave a water film.
The water will evaporate, too (it's 'distilled' from the air, so there's no residues expected),
but takes longer than alcohol. A printed circuit with water exposure will air-dry in
a few days at room temperature.

No isopropanol is 'pure' after being exposed to air, like for a cleaning task. It's likely the water
that mainly contributes to conduction, either due to intrinsic dissociation or to pH from
minor contaminants (aka 'buffer agents') that didn't get cleaned off.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Witless IDIOT whit3rd wrote:

============================

Rubbing alcohol is hygroscopic (it absorbs water from normal ambient air).

** Very slowly....

So, cleaning with alcohol will usually, after the alcohol residue evaporates, leave a water film.

** Not usually, the BPs are similar so both evap at once.

The water will evaporate, too (it's 'distilled' from the air, so there's no residues expected),
but takes longer than alcohol. A printed circuit with water exposure will air-dry in
a few days at room temperature.

** Wrong - more likely it will take minutes, not days.
No more than 5 in a warm oven.

FYI

I regularly clean very dirty PCBs in hot water & dish washing liquid - rinse and then dry in a oven at 100C for 5 to 10 mins.
Come out looking like new.


..... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 11:27:14 -0800 (PST), "Peter W."
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

You are micturating vertically onto a braided convenience.

Hardly. I have half a kidney missing, which makes such feats of
urination difficult or impossible.

For some the "science" is too much to handle in light of
infinite 'what if' speculations.

What if I explained the science in terms that the reader asking the
question might understand? While my explanations would never be
sufficient to pacify a genuine expert, I would think they would be
sufficient for someone of average intelligence wanting to know the
basics or at least what words to use for a subsequent Google search.

For example, think of an air gap transformer. Electrons go into the
primary winding. Electrons also leave the secondary winding. However,
in between, there are no electrons, only air. It also works in a
vacuum, so it's not electron movement via conduction through air
molecules. So, what happened?

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
Schiller

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maid_of_Orleans_(play)>
"Against stupidity, the gods themselves battle in vain."

Whom are you calling stupid? The person who asked an interesting
question, or me who dared to answer it?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <po8k2h9c46rmks39tmaqo3aimn2b8ekg4j@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:49:55 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not an electrical engineer but I don't think that's complete.
Other things can be current besides electrons, and in liquids
wouldn't the current be from other than electrons?

Nope. Just electrons (and holes). The electrons can be part of many elements and molecules. The electrons are what "moves" in solutions
and wires. I don't know of any molecule or ion that will "move" in
the same manner as electrons. Electrons will move (conduct) through a
solid wire, through a conductive liquid, and through an ionized gas,
all connected in series without any chemical or physical change.
Electrons can even be convinced to flow through a vacuum. When you
talk about conductivity, you're really talking about the movement (displacement) of electrons (or holes) through a solid, liquid, or
gas.

Water conducts very slightly, because a small amount of molecules
are dissociated into H+ and OH-. These would travel through the
fluid to the electrodes.

Nope. The ions do not travel through a solid wire.

Distilled water is an insulator. <https://archive.epa.gov/water/archive/web/html/vms59.html>
<quote>
Conductivity is measured in micromhos per centimeter (µmhos/cm) or microsiemens per centimeter (µs/cm). Distilled water has a
conductivity in the range of 0.5 to 3 µmhos/cm. The conductivity of
rivers in the United States generally ranges from 50 to 1500 µmhos/cm. Studies of inland fresh waters indicate that streams supporting good
mixed fisheries have a range between 150 and 500 µhos/cm. Conductivity outside this range could indicate that the water is not suitable for
certain species of fish or macroinvertebrates. Industrial waters can
range as high as 10,000 µmhos/cm.
</quote>

Take a look at TDS (total dissolved solids) meters. <https://www.google.com/search?q=TDS+meter&tbm=isch>
These are commonly used to test for the total amount of crud in our
drinking water. Mostly, they react to the HCl (hydrochloric acid)
added to our water to kill off bacteria. There are also pH meters,
that will indicate if your favorite beverage is acidic or alkaline.

Incidentally, distilled (or de-ionized) water is tasteless. The
quality of good drinking water is not in the water, but rather in the
ionized additives.

Electroplating works precisely because the ions move to the electrode
through the electrolyte and stick to it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Whom are you calling stupid? The person who asked an interesting
question, or me who dared to answer it?

Jeff:

No such thing as a stupid question - but for the one not asked. But, the individual you are attempting to 'educate' is not asking questions, but speculating. There may be a question-mark after the speculation, but it is not a question.

"The time has come", the Walrus said, "To talk of many things: Of shoes - and ships - and sealing wax - Of cabbages - and kings- And why the sea is boiling hot - And whether pigs have wings."

It is nonsense. And attempting to enforce 'science' or 'discipline' or 'rigor' on nonsense is an exercise in futility. As you are ever-the-gentleman, you are much more prone to grant others the benefit of the doubt - I am far less tolerant than you are.
Not that I do not enjoy nonsense. It has its place and it can be great good fun.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 5:16:06 AM UTC-5, Mike Coon wrote:

Electroplating works precisely because the ions move to the electrode through the electrolyte and stick to it.

Corrosion is the same.
Ions move through the electrolyte, when they hit the dissimilar metal (which can be the same surface just at a place with slightly different electronegativity) then electrons move through the metal, so you have a complete circuit. I've not done any
electroplating but had some experience with corrosion protection.

So in a case like electroplating or corrosion, electrons are moving through the wired part of the circuit, ions are moving through the electrolyte part. The electrons that move with the ions are fixed to them, not loose like in a metal. I don't want to
argue with Jeff but i always called that current, with ions as the charge carriers.

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On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 12:16:09 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 3:06:30 PM UTC-8, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

[vituperation extirpated] whit3rd wrote:

Rubbing alcohol is hygroscopic (it absorbs water from normal ambient air).

** Very slowly....

So, cleaning with alcohol will usually, after the alcohol residue evaporates, leave a water film.

** Not usually, the BPs are similar so both evap at once.

The water will evaporate, too (it's 'distilled' from the air, so there's no residues expected),
but takes longer than alcohol. A printed circuit with water exposure will air-dry in
a few days at room temperature.

** Wrong - more likely it will take minutes, not days.

Depends on the purpose of the circuit; if nanoamps matter, or kilovolts are involved,
or components have nooks and crannies (remember, this was about keyboards to begin with)
the answer is different. How well sealed are your trimpots?

Back in the 70s, I was washing TV module and chassis boards before rebuilding them by putting them in the sink and using a commercially available sudsy ammonia cleaner cut 5:1 with water and a stiff paint brush. Before I did, I removed the transformers
and anything else that would trap moisture. After washing and rinsing, I put the boards in a hotbox (cardboard box with a hole cut to fit the snout of a hair dryer) on low heat for about an hour, then reassembled. So clean they even shined. Never had
a problem, but as you say, you've got to make sure there's no trapped moisture.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 3:06:30 PM UTC-8, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

[vituperation extirpated] whit3rd wrote:

Rubbing alcohol is hygroscopic (it absorbs water from normal ambient air).

** Very slowly....

So, cleaning with alcohol will usually, after the alcohol residue evaporates, leave a water film.

** Not usually, the BPs are similar so both evap at once.

The water will evaporate, too (it's 'distilled' from the air, so there's no residues expected),
but takes longer than alcohol. A printed circuit with water exposure will air-dry in
a few days at room temperature.

** Wrong - more likely it will take minutes, not days.

Depends on the purpose of the circuit; if nanoamps matter, or kilovolts are involved,
or components have nooks and crannies (remember, this was about keyboards to begin with)
the answer is different. How well sealed are your trimpots?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Witless Wanker Fuckwit wrote:
========================

Rubbing alcohol is hygroscopic (it absorbs water from normal ambient air).

** Very slowly....

So, cleaning with alcohol will usually, after the alcohol residue evaporates, leave a water film.

** Not usually, the BPs are similar so both evap at once.

The water will evaporate, too (it's 'distilled' from the air, so there's no residues expected),
but takes longer than alcohol. A printed circuit with water exposure will air-dry in
a few days at room temperature.

** Wrong - more likely it will take minutes, not days.

Depends on the purpose of the circuit; if nanoamps matter, or kilovolts are involved,

** Context shift ?

or components have nooks and crannies (remember, this was about keyboards to begin with)

** Quote: " A printed circuit ... "

Congenital LIARS slyly shift contexts and deliberately misquote.

Was it your mom or your dad who taught you to lie and cheat ?

Fuck you.


...... Phil

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On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 2:01:57 PM UTC-7, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

whit3rd wrote:

...A printed circuit with water exposure will air-dry in
a few days at room temperature.

** Wrong - more likely it will take minutes, not days.

Depends on the purpose of the circuit; if nanoamps matter, or kilovolts are involved,

** Context shift ?

or components have nooks and crannies (remember, this was about keyboards to begin with)

** Quote: " A printed circuit ... "

Yeah, so? Do you see a lot of keyboards that are hand-wired, without a printed
circuit (sometimes flexible) attaching the other components? I've cleaned a few by
total-immersion dipping.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Yeah, so? Do you see a lot of keyboards that are hand-wired, without a printed
circuit (sometimes flexible) attaching the other components? I've cleaned a few by
total-immersion dipping.

Mpfff, yep! Or top rack in the dishwasher (Bosch), batteries out (wireless types), delicate cycle, 1/4 detergent load.

Not lost a patient yet. About once per year. Clean as the proverbial whistle.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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