Only a tiny segment of Israel's Jewish society is refusing these
forms of "winning" and are calling for an immediate ceasefire. For
them, then, winning entails a complete and total paradigm shift,
transforming Israel into a single democratic state between the
Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea where Jews and Palestinians
can live together as equals."
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis
"Neve Gordon is an Israeli professor and academic. He is a
professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary
University of London and writes on issues relating to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict and human rights. He used to teach at Ben-
Gurion University of the Negev. " (Wikepedia)
[...]
On 11/14/2023 11:00 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
https://meduza.io/feature/2023/11/14/tsahal-opublikoval-video-s-infrastrukturoy-hamas-pod-detskoy-bolnitsey-v-gaze
?????-?????? ????? ??????? ??????? (?????) ???????????? ?????, ? ???????,
On 11/14/2023 9:52 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
| .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
| to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
| of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
| as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
| and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com
One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
(I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).
А фото и видео?
Кому верить: своим лживым глазам, или известному своей правдивостью
хамасу, и не менее правдивой русской пропаганде?
Another notable fact is that the number of children Israel is
killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.
...как подсчитал тот же хамас, с той же русской пропагандой.
Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:0ff09618-c97c-4a18-8b05-c7b1708155bf@fido.fw.nu>
On 11/14/2023 11:00 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
https://meduza.io/feature/2023/11/14/tsahal-opublikoval-video-s-infrastrukturoy-hamas-pod-detskoy-bolnitsey-v-gaze
?????-?????? ????? ??????? ??????? (?????) ???????????? ?????, ? ???????,
| .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
| to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
| of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
| as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
| and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com
One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
(I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).
Another notable fact is that the number of children Israel is
killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.
On 11/14/2023 11:02 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
"Russian propaganda" is aside here.
"Russian propaganda" is right here. You are Russian propaganda.
You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.
Хочешь сказать, что нужно перестать тебя читать?
from UN sources
Гы-гы-гы.
Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:361e979c-9bf6-43c0-bd42-24dc2568df3e@fido.fw.nu>
On 11/14/2023 9:52 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
| .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
| to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
| of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
| as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
| and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com
One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
(I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).
А фото и видео?
Кому верить: своим лживым глазам, или известному своей правдивостью
хамасу, и не менее правдивой русской пропаганде?
"Russian propaganda" is aside here.
You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.
from UN sources
котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
вероятно, удерживали заложников.
Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:e0d4b08c-0a97-47fb-850e-f9e15e2c985a@fido.fw.nu>
On 11/14/2023 11:02 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
"Russian propaganda" is aside here.
"Russian propaganda" is right here. You are Russian propaganda.
You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.
Хочешь сказать, что нужно перестать тебя читать?
from UN sources
Гы-гы-гы.
So the UN is promoting lies while the Israeli propaganda
is the only truth, since the anti-Semitism is everywhere
(and the Russian propaganda is the main driver).
On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
вероятно, удерживали заложников.
Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
захватили зал суда, какой то сфотографировались и там и там "парламент
газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские больницы, где
"хранилось оружие". Всё в пределах района, размером с половину
московского района Зюзино. Который они до сих пор не контролируют, но
(вроде) его уже можно проехать насквозь на танке. В дневное время.
....захвачена пара подвалов, где "жили боевики".
Потеряли полторы сотни бронетехники и более тысячи солдат убитыми.
А что будет, если этот самый "цахал" начнёт воевать не с тапочниками, а
хотя бы - с хезболлой?
Даже представить себе боюсь.
А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен показать дно. Резервы на войну исчерпаны.
Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не2 последние войны, Израиль стоял на грани поражения. Как мне
воевал.
А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен показать дно. Резервы на войну
исчерпаны.
А ты им помощь пошли. Гуманитарную.
On 15.11.2023 10:36, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не2 последние войны, Израиль стоял на грани поражения. Как мне
воевал.
охарактеризовать битву за условное Зюзино с такими потерями, я прямо и
не знаю. Можно лишь утверждать, что пока битва идёт по пути,
спланированному хамасовскими штабистами, потери огромны, захват
территории ничего не даёт, потому - что не взяты тоннели, а брать их
некому и нечем.
On 11/15/2023 1:19 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там
же, вероятно, удерживали заложников.
Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
захватили зал суда, какой то сфотографировались и там и там
"парламент газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские
больницы, где "хранилось оружие". Всё в пределах района, размером с
половину московского района Зюзино. Который они до сих пор не
контролируют, но (вроде) его уже можно проехать насквозь на танке. В
дневное время.
....захвачена пара подвалов, где "жили боевики".
Потеряли полторы сотни бронетехники и более тысячи солдат убитыми.
А что будет, если этот самый "цахал" начнёт воевать не с тапочниками,
а хотя бы - с хезболлой?
Даже представить себе боюсь.
Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не
воевал.
А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен показать дно. Резервы на войну
исчерпаны.
А ты им помощь пошли. Гуманитарную.
ltlee1, <news:5dab9c98-fc8a-4faf...@googlegroups.com>
Only a tiny segment of Israel's Jewish society is refusing these
forms of "winning" and are calling for an immediate ceasefire. For
them, then, winning entails a complete and total paradigm shift, transforming Israel into a single democratic state between the
Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea where Jews and Palestinians
can live together as equals."
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis
"Neve Gordon is an Israeli professor and academic. He is a
professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary
University of London and writes on issues relating to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict and human rights. He used to teach at Ben-
Gurion University of the Negev. " (Wikepedia)
The professor maybe has forgotten to mention one relevant fact that
the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
the classical "divide and conquer" approach.
Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy, although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
were more complicit. Also, there was some information from Assange <https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term. Today, regardless of whether Israel could suppress Gaza, the mess
greatly reduces its chances of normalization with the Islamic world.
The idea of "a single democratic state where Jews and Palestinians can
live together" does not look realistic, as the mutual hatred between
them has come to tribal feuding.
Besides, the long-term conflict seems
to become some "game" <https://is.gd/s8u5RA> with "self-damaging roles instead of rational benefits". Such games may be dificult to end.
On 11/15/2023 1:19 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там
же, вероятно, удерживали заложников.
Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
захватили зал суда, какой то сфотографировались и там и там
"парламент газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские
больницы, где
а был ли он, "парламент газы"?
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724810523265679554
On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
вероятно, удерживали заложников.
Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
захватили зал суда, какой то сфотографировались и там и там "парламент
газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские больницы, где
killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.
... , .
The data for Gaza and for the Ukraine are both from UN sources <https://tinyurl.com/23memetz> 545 Ukraine per 18 months <https://tinyurl.com/ym9mdofo> 4600 Gaza per 39 days
The data for Gaza and for the Ukraine are both from UN sources <https://tinyurl.com/23memetz> 545 Ukraine per 18 months <https://tinyurl.com/ym9mdofo> 4600 Gaza per 39 days
the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
the classical "divide and conquer" approach.
Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy, although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
were more complicit.
Also, there was some information from Assange
<https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.
the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret
services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the
Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of
Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up
against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the
creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an
Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
the classical "divide and conquer" approach.
Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the
proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy,
although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
were more complicit.
One recent article where the left is blaming the Israeli right.
| .. Netanyahu and the Israeli military have attempted to obscure their
| massive failure with a massive display of firepower .. Netanyahu .. It
| is well-documented that he and others in Likud helped to create Hamas,
| gave financial support to it in order to fracture the Palestinians so
| Likud and other right-wing Israeli parties opposed to any Palestinian
| state could claim they had no party to negotiate with .. This simply as
| a delaying tactic while the Israeli settlements metastasized throughout
| the West Bank. But on October 7 the folly of Netanyahu's connivance in
| the creation Hamas was lost for most Israelis in the mists of time.
| How clever he was until he wasn't .. <https://tinyurl.com/ykzamt86>
Also, there was some information from Assange
<https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both
Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.
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