• The BBB model of Western democracy

    From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 28 00:47:06 2025
    Although many people including Francis Fukuyama had given up the concept
    of “The End of History, ” American elites still hold on Western
    democracy as The End of History system.

    Democracy means rule by the people. Democracy is therefore as good and
    as bad as the people themselves. Knowledgeable and capable people leads
    to good democracy. Ignorant and incapable people leads to bad democracy.
    Plato thought Monarchy was more advance than Democracy. Plato was right
    because the quality of the people at his time and hundreds of years
    after him was in general VERY POOR. They were neither knowledgeable nor
    capable collectively speaking most of the time.

    Social stability and associated wealth during the subsequent centuries
    allowed more and more people to receive formal and informal education in various parts of Europe. People with improved quality then became the foundation of representative democracy. This explains the success of Representative Democracy.

    At present, people in many part of the world are a lot more
    knowledgeable and capable than representative democracy has assumed.
    Hence citizens should no longer be treated as Brainless Black Boxes
    which could only cough up either Candidate X or Candidate Y as answers concerning their country once every few years. To the extent that people
    of Western liberal democracy are not more involved and contribute to
    their democracy, Western Democracy is anachronistic just like Plato’s democracy is anachronistic.

    As is, China’s democratic centralism is a lot more democratic than
    Western democracy.

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 00:39:27 2025
    WSJ.com By The Editorial Board

    "We’ve courted Mr. Trump’s ire by calling the Mexico and Canada levies
    the “dumbest” in history, and we may have understated the point. Mr.
    Trump is whacking friends, not adversaries. His taxes will hit every cross-border transaction, and the North American vehicle market is so interconnected that some cars cross a border as many as eight times as they’re assembled.

    Mr. Trump also objected when we reported an analysis by the Anderson
    Economic Group that the 25% tariff will raise the cost of a full-sized
    SUV assembled in North America by $9,000 and a pickup truck by $8,000.
    Is this how the new Republican Party plans on helping working-class
    voters?"

    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/trump-takes-the-dumbest-tariff-plunge-5da57946?

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  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 5 02:12:12 2025
    ltlee1@hotmail.com (ltlee1) wrote:
    WSJ.com By The Editorial Board

    "We’ve courted Mr. Trump’s ire by calling the Mexico and Canada levies the “dumbest” in history, and we may have understated the point. Mr. Trump is whacking friends, not adversaries. His taxes will hit every cross-border transaction, and the North American vehicle market is so interconnected that some cars cross a border as many as eight times as they’re assembled.

    Mr. Trump also objected when we reported an analysis by the Anderson
    Economic Group that the 25% tariff will raise the cost of a full-sized
    SUV assembled in North America by $9,000 and a pickup truck by $8,000.
    Is this how the new Republican Party plans on helping working-class
    voters?"

    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/trump-takes-the-dumbest-tariff-plunge-5da57946?

    There is a "mad" logic in Trump tariff moves/threats. Even a few days
    with tariffs will cause "risk recalculations" for many years.

    Is it good for USA on long run?
    Different people judge/bet differently.
    I do not rule it out (completely) but I doubt.

    I do expect PRC to weaponize "tariff shocks" in a few decades.

    --
    A. Filip
    | If you steal from one author it's plagiarism; if you steal from
    | many it's research. (Wilson Mizner)

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 01:57:59 2025
    Don't really know what you want to convey.

    Of course different people judge/bet differently. At the same time,
    there is no reason to assume that people are equally proficient in
    judging likely impact of Trumps Tariff.

    More specific, the WSJ editorial has cited "an analysis by the Anderson Economic Group that the 25% tariff will raise the cost of a full-sized
    SUV assembled in North America by $9,000 and a pickup truck by $8,000."
    And the following democratically relevant question:"Is this how the new Republican Party plans on helping working-class voters?"

    What is your judge/bet? And if your numbers are different from those
    provided by the Anderson Economic Group, please explain 1) your numbers
    are more accurate and/or 2) the Mad Logic in Trump's Tariff move.

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  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 5 04:37:00 2025
    ltlee1@hotmail.com (ltlee1) wrote:
    Don't really know what you want to convey.

    Of course different people judge/bet differently. At the same time,
    there is no reason to assume that people are equally proficient in
    judging likely impact of Trumps Tariff.

    More specific, the WSJ editorial has cited "an analysis by the Anderson Economic Group that the 25% tariff will raise the cost of a full-sized
    SUV assembled in North America by $9,000 and a pickup truck by $8,000."
    And the following democratically relevant question:"Is this how the new Republican Party plans on helping working-class voters?"

    What is your judge/bet? And if your numbers are different from those
    provided by the Anderson Economic Group, please explain 1) your numbers
    are more accurate and/or 2) the Mad Logic in Trump's Tariff move.

    Is it a prediction of a short term price rise or long term price rise
    after adjustments? Anyway: 1) Is it THE ONLY effect? 2) They can see no positive effects for working-class _USA_ voters?

    Balance stupid! IMHO Quite likely the _balance_ will be negative.
    IMHO the way you presented it makes it one sided story.
    [cheap propaganda]

    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein
    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler,"

    --
    A. Filip
    | Blessed is he who has reached the point of no return and knows it,
    | for he shall enjoy living. (W. C. Bennett)

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 5 14:15:25 2025
    In article <9fc4d05599c053ecdfe01b16b2adf4e9@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    WSJ.com By The Editorial Board

    "We’ve courted Mr. Trump’s ire by calling the Mexico and Canada levies >the “dumbest” in history, and we may have understated the point. Mr. >Trump is whacking friends, not adversaries. His taxes will hit every >cross-border transaction, and the North American vehicle market is so >interconnected that some cars cross a border as many as eight times as >they’re assembled.

    Mr. Trump also objected when we reported an analysis by the Anderson
    Economic Group that the 25% tariff will raise the cost of a full-sized
    SUV assembled in North America by $9,000 and a pickup truck by $8,000.
    Is this how the new Republican Party plans on helping working-class
    voters?"

    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/trump-takes-the-dumbest-tariff-plunge-5da57946?

    What is BBB?

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 16:21:39 2025
    Another piece from WSJ Editorial Board

    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/donald-trump-tariffs-canada-mexico-china-working-class-voters-dc140dbc
    ----------------------------------------------
    Opinion | Trump’s Tariffs Whack Trump Voters
    Whatever happened to GOP concern for the working class?

    The Editorial Board
    March 4, 2025 6:12 pm ET

    President Trump won the Presidency a second time by promising
    working-class voters he’d lift their real incomes. Which makes it all
    the more puzzling that he’s so intent on imposing tariffs that will
    punish those same Americans.

    Tariffs are taxes, and Mr. Trump’s latest tariffs are estimated to be
    about an annual $150 billion tax increase. Taxes are antigrowth. That’s
    the message investors are sending this week since Mr. Trump let his 25%
    tariffs on Canada and Mexico take effect. The President also raised his
    10% tariff on China by another 10%. Canada and China retaliated, while
    Mexico is holding off until Sunday.

    The border taxes, and the uncertainty they bring, are weighing on growth
    and consumer confidence. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 3.4%
    since Mr. Trump took office, erasing the ebullient gains that followed
    his November election.

    Brace for higher prices on berries, bell peppers, and, gulp, beer.
    Target CEO Brian Cornell told CNBC Tuesday that tariffs on Mexico may
    force the company to raise prices on fruits and vegetables. About 30% of vegetables and fresh fruit sold in the U.S. come from Mexico. Modelo’s Mexican-produced Especial is the best-selling beer in the U.S.
    ..
    ----------------------------------------------

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 5 18:50:30 2025
    In article <79eb4956b585fab590afbdbfcbfd42f1@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Another piece from WSJ Editorial Board

    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/donald-trump-tariffs-canada-mexico-china-working-class-voters-dc140dbc
    ----------------------------------------------
    Opinion | Trump’s Tariffs Whack Trump Voters
    Whatever happened to GOP concern for the working class?

    The Editorial Board
    March 4, 2025 6:12 pm ET

    President Trump won the Presidency a second time by promising
    working-class voters he’d lift their real incomes. Which makes it all
    the more puzzling that he’s so intent on imposing tariffs that will
    punish those same Americans.

    Tariffs are taxes, and Mr. Trump’s latest tariffs are estimated to be
    about an annual $150 billion tax increase. Taxes are antigrowth. That’s
    the message investors are sending this week since Mr. Trump let his 25% >tariffs on Canada and Mexico take effect. The President also raised his
    10% tariff on China by another 10%. Canada and China retaliated, while
    Mexico is holding off until Sunday.

    The border taxes, and the uncertainty they bring, are weighing on growth
    and consumer confidence. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 3.4%
    since Mr. Trump took office, erasing the ebullient gains that followed
    his November election.

    Brace for higher prices on berries, bell peppers, and, gulp, beer.
    Target CEO Brian Cornell told CNBC Tuesday that tariffs on Mexico may
    force the company to raise prices on fruits and vegetables. About 30% of >vegetables and fresh fruit sold in the U.S. come from Mexico. Modelo’s >Mexican-produced Especial is the best-selling beer in the U.S.

    Trump is an idiot. I have explained this on soc.culture.china for years.

    But what is BBB? It's a Dutch political party, but I don't think that's what you are referring to.

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 19:01:13 2025
    Yet another article criticisng Trump's tariff strategy. This time, from theatlantic.com. The WSJ represents the view of traditional right while theatlantic.com is slightly left.

    "The new tariffs will raise prices for American consumers, weaken the
    American auto industry, and prompt severe retaliation from America’s top trading partners. With respect to China, a case can be made that tariffs
    would promote U.S. national security and domestic industry if they were targeted and well designed. But Trump’s blanket 20 percent tariff on all Chinese imports is neither. Meanwhile, the 25 percent tariffs on Canada
    and Mexico are utterly incomprehensible. There is no grand economic
    vision, geopolitical strategy, or even political logic behind them. International trade, like all areas of public policy, is a game of
    weighing costs versus benefits. Trump’s tariffs are the rare policy that might turn out to represent nothing but cost.

    The most widespread and direct effect of the new tariffs will come in
    the form of inflation. Tariffs, which are literally a tax on imported
    goods, are often passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices,
    and Mexico, Canada, and China together account for more than 40 percent
    of U.S. imports. Yale’s Budget Lab estimates that the new tariffs will
    cost the average household anywhere from $1,600 to $2,000 a year."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/03/trump-tariffs-canada-mexico/681912/

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 19:05:21 2025
    ??? You could not access the beginning post of this thread: The BBB
    model of Western democracy.

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to bmoore on Thu Mar 6 18:57:07 2025
    In article <1741286852.785061@nyx2.nyx.net>, bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
    In article <bf7a61ee0edd192426ee622b0302edc2@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    ??? You could not access the beginning post of this thread: The BBB
    model of Western democracy.

    I read it. But it doesn't cite any sources that define BBB, nor does it define BBB itself. Did I miss something?

    Oh, found it. Had to dig. Brainless Black Boxes. I agree that half of America is brainless. Very sad.

    Trump is an idiot with charisma.

    But Americans are fighting back. We don't want a dictator.

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Thu Mar 6 18:47:32 2025
    In article <bf7a61ee0edd192426ee622b0302edc2@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    ??? You could not access the beginning post of this thread: The BBB
    model of Western democracy.

    I read it. But it doesn't cite any sources that define BBB, nor does it define BBB itself. Did I miss something?

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to bmoore on Sat Mar 8 17:42:36 2025
    In article <1741286852.785061@nyx2, bmoore > wrote:

    Brainless Black Boxes. I agree that half of America is brainless. Very
    sad.
    I don't mean American people brainless at all. Rather, the US democratic
    system is kind of treating/using the citizenry as brainless.

    However, two books are entitled "Attention Deficit Democracy." A 2006
    book by James Bovard and a 2012 book by Ben Berger.

    Trump is an idiot with charisma.

    The relation between Attention Deficit Democracy and Trump is
    intriguing.

    "If you were setting out to design a trade policy that would harm the
    American economy while undermining political support for its leadership,
    you might come up with something like the tariffs that Donald Trump just imposed on Canada, China, and Mexico."

    But Americans are fighting back. We don't want a dictator.

    How?
    Less rationally deliberating citizen involvement automatically means
    more dictatorship.

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 25 14:32:05 2025
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Politicians Think You're Dumb. Are They Right?
    A striking new study reveals that elected officials have a far more
    pessimistic view of voter behavior than do citizens themselves.

    Jerusalem Demsas
    March 25, 2025, 6 AM ET

    Across 11 different democracies, politicians share a shockingly
    pessimistic view: They believe that their voters are uninformed,
    unreasonable, and short-sighted. In a paper recently published by the
    American Political Science Review, the University of Calgary political scientist Jack Lucas and his co-authors surveyed 12,000 citizens and
    conducted face-to-face interviews with nearly 1,000 elected officials.
    In this wide-ranging study of countries including Australia, Denmark,
    Germany, and Canada, the researchers find that elected officials and
    voters diverge wildly. Unlike politicians, voters believe themselves to
    be policy-oriented, politically knowledgeable, and engaged.
    ..
    ------------------------------------------------------

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  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Tue Mar 25 15:51:59 2025
    ltlee1@hotmail.com (ltlee1) wrote:
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Politicians Think You're Dumb. Are They Right?
    A striking new study reveals that elected officials have a far more pessimistic view of voter behavior than do citizens themselves.

    Jerusalem Demsas
    March 25, 2025, 6 AM ET

    Across 11 different democracies, politicians share a shockingly
    pessimistic view: They believe that their voters are uninformed, unreasonable, and short-sighted. In a paper recently published by the American Political Science Review, the University of Calgary political scientist Jack Lucas and his co-authors surveyed 12,000 citizens and conducted face-to-face interviews with nearly 1,000 elected officials.
    In this wide-ranging study of countries including Australia, Denmark, Germany, and Canada, the researchers find that elected officials and
    voters diverge wildly. Unlike politicians, voters believe themselves to
    be policy-oriented, politically knowledgeable, and engaged.
    ..
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Could you present similar studies from PRC?
    China is the most important, isn't it?

    --
    A. Filip
    | Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
    | (James Thurber)

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 27 13:45:11 2025
    Western democracy is suboptimal. But ritualistic voting is blocking
    democracy from evolving. The following from ""Democracy is like the
    appendix" by Dylan Evans in "What Should We be Worried" edited by John
    Brockman 2014:

    "Democracy is like the appendix. The very thing that makes majority dissatisfaction inevitable in a democracy—the voting mechanism—also
    makes it hard for a better political system to develop. The reforms that
    would be necessary to pave the way for alternative systems of governance
    lie well outside the safe middle ground of the median voter. Politicians advocating such reforms are unlikely, therefore, to be voted into
    office."

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Mon Mar 31 16:27:35 2025
    In article <8b74bc68fc0137dfcae453542ec4bf31@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Western democracy is suboptimal. But ritualistic voting is blocking
    democracy from evolving. The following from ""Democracy is like the
    appendix" by Dylan Evans in "What Should We be Worried" edited by John >Brockman 2014:

    "Democracy is like the appendix. The very thing that makes majority >dissatisfaction inevitable in a democracy—the voting mechanism—also
    makes it hard for a better political system to develop. The reforms that >would be necessary to pave the way for alternative systems of governance
    lie well outside the safe middle ground of the median voter. Politicians >advocating such reforms are unlikely, therefore, to be voted into
    office."

    How to bash democracy: a guide.

    1) Find an extremist Western author critical of democracy.

    2) Quote him.

    3) Take care to always refer to democracies like the US as Western democracy, even though the extremist author
    doesn't, ever. This way you can pretend that brutal autocratic states like the PRC and North Korea are democracies
    even though they are not.

    4) Do this a lot.

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 1 21:53:45 2025
    How to improve democracy?
    A guide:

    1.0 Democracy is about rule by the people.
    2.0 Representative Democracy is a better version than Plato's version of democracy
    2.1.0 Representative Democracy is operated on a BBB model.
    2.1.1 In Western Democracies, Ritualistic voting and democracy are often
    seen as one and the same thing.
    2.1.2 In reality, Ritualistic elections block democracy from evolving.

    Voting is blocking democracy from evolving. The following from
    ""Democracy is like the >appendix" by Dylan Evans in "What Should We be Worried" edited by John
    Brockman 2014:

    "Democracy is like the appendix. The very thing that makes majority >dissatisfaction inevitable in a democracy—the voting mechanism—also
    makes it hard for a better political system to develop. The reforms that >would be necessary to pave the way for alternative systems of governance
    lie well outside the safe middle ground of the median voter. Politicians >advocating such reforms are unlikely, therefore, to be voted into
    office."

    2.1.2.1 Ritualistic elections over-demand the people.
    2.1.2.1.1 Why many people don't vote?
    2.1.2.2 Ritualistic elections under-demand the people.
    2.1.2.2.1 Why Election with low approval rating were elected term after
    term.

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Wed Apr 2 11:45:54 2025
    In article <b39a8efcb2df50a52a71ea49f720878a@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    How to improve democracy?
    A guide:

    Nothing below says anything about how to improve democracy. It does, however, repeat the absurd claim that voting is a bad thing:

    "Voting is blocking democracy from evolving."

    1.0 Democracy is about rule by the people.
    2.0 Representative Democracy is a better version than Plato's version of >democracy
    2.1.0 Representative Democracy is operated on a BBB model.
    2.1.1 In Western Democracies, Ritualistic voting and democracy are often
    seen as one and the same thing.
    2.1.2 In reality, Ritualistic elections block democracy from evolving.

    Voting is blocking democracy from evolving. The following from
    ""Democracy is like the >appendix" by Dylan Evans in "What Should We be >Worried" edited by John
    Brockman 2014:

    "Democracy is like the appendix. The very thing that makes majority >>dissatisfaction inevitable in a democracy—the voting mechanism—also >>makes it hard for a better political system to develop. The reforms that >>would be necessary to pave the way for alternative systems of governance >>lie well outside the safe middle ground of the median voter. Politicians >>advocating such reforms are unlikely, therefore, to be voted into
    office."

    2.1.2.1 Ritualistic elections over-demand the people.
    2.1.2.1.1 Why many people don't vote?
    2.1.2.2 Ritualistic elections under-demand the people.
    2.1.2.2.1 Why Election with low approval rating were elected term after
    term.

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 2 13:25:43 2025
    Why is Plato's conception of democracy discarded?
    Simple. Plato grossly mischaracterized the people's collective ability
    to govern.

    Why is Voting bad for democracy?
    The same reason: Voting, likely mobbing, grossly mischaracterize
    people's collective ability to govern.

    If one wants argue that ritualistic voting is somehow infallible and
    therefore the best for the people, please do.

    Anyway, I had presented Rasmussen Report's surveys in which likely that
    3 out of 4 likely voters in the US said the US government did not govern
    with the consent of the people. WHY?


    Are these US citizens dumb as many elected officials in various Western Democracies think their citizens are?

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  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to bmoore on Wed Apr 2 16:09:54 2025
    bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) wrote:
    In article <b39a8efcb2df50a52a71ea49f720878a@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    How to improve democracy?
    A guide:

    Nothing below says anything about how to improve democracy. It does, however, repeat the absurd claim that voting is a bad thing:

    "Voting is blocking democracy from evolving."
    […]

    Modern democracies (electocracies) evolve/change *ONLY* via voting?
    Which major "western" democracies avoided "discontinuities" during last
    200 years? USA *at federal level* (see "rebelled" CSA states) and UK.
    Russia forces Ukrainian "system" to evolve without voting ["suspended" elections].
    So yes, voting in a quite few cases "delays" necessary changes.
    Do it mean that the balance *must be* negative? Can't any fixes fix it?
    There is a huge difference between may/should be (further) improved
    and unfixable.

    As somebody said:
    A _good_ king/emperor is much better (efficient) than democracy.
    A bad king/emperor is _MUCH_ worse than (typical) democracy.
    How to avoid bad kings/emperors?

    --
    A. Filip
    | Anything anybody can say about America is true. (Emmett Grogan)

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to A. Filip on Wed Apr 2 15:10:38 2025
    In article <anfi+r8aiz8aqlf-p423@onionmail.org>,
    A. Filip <anfi@onionmail.org> wrote:
    bmoore@nyx.net (bmoore) wrote:
    In article <b39a8efcb2df50a52a71ea49f720878a@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    How to improve democracy?
    A guide:

    Nothing below says anything about how to improve democracy. It does, however,
    repeat the absurd claim that voting is a bad thing:

    "Voting is blocking democracy from evolving."
    […]

    Modern democracies (electocracies) evolve/change *ONLY* via voting?

    Huh? It does not say "only"!

    Which major "western" democracies avoided "discontinuities" during last
    200 years? USA *at federal level* (see "rebelled" CSA states) and UK.
    Russia forces Ukrainian "system" to evolve without voting ["suspended" elections].
    So yes, voting in a quite few cases "delays" necessary changes.
    Do it mean that the balance *must be* negative? Can't any fixes fix it? >There is a huge difference between may/should be (further) improved
    and unfixable.

    As somebody said:
    A _good_ king/emperor is much better (efficient) than democracy.
    A bad king/emperor is _MUCH_ worse than (typical) democracy.
    How to avoid bad kings/emperors?

    That's the problem.

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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to ltlee1@hotmail.com on Wed Apr 2 15:21:36 2025
    In article <2f699e011761a70f1cdaea508dbad9a1@www.novabbs.com>,
    ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Why is Plato's conception of democracy discarded?
    Simple. Plato grossly mischaracterized the people's collective ability
    to govern.

    Why is Voting bad for democracy?
    The same reason: Voting, likely mobbing, grossly mischaracterize
    people's collective ability to govern.

    If one wants argue that ritualistic voting is somehow infallible and >therefore the best for the people, please do.

    No one else in this thread has used the words "ritualistic" or "infallible", so that's a straw man.

    Anyway, I had presented Rasmussen Report's surveys in which likely that
    3 out of 4 likely voters in the US said the US government did not govern
    with the consent of the people. WHY?

    Assuming the poll is accurate, I don't know. I do know that we'll never get accurate polls in places like
    North Korea or the PRC, because the governments there are extremely controlling.

    Are these US citizens dumb as many elected officials in various Western >Democracies think their citizens are?

    I don't know. Nor do I know what the point is here.

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