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On 10/26/2023 3:23 PM, Governor Swill wrote:

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:30:09 -0700, Jay Santos <js@cap.gov> wrote:

On 10/25/2023 5:01 PM, Governor Swill wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 04:04:36 -0500, David Hartung <junk@nogood.com> wrote: >>>

On 10/23/23 22:13, Jay Santos wrote:

['can.politics' gratuitous bullshit crosspost removed]

On 10/1/2023 9:04 AM, Rhys Gabbard wrote:

The Right Needs To Stop Falsely Claiming That The Nazis Were Socialists >>>>>

They should, but they are dishonest and won't.  The lie that the Nazis >>>>> were "socialists" is one of the far right's two favorite lies, the other >>>>> being that the KKK was founded by the "Democratic party."

The KKK *was* founded by Democrats.

It was founded by reactionary racist whites who, in that era, were Democrats,
but it was not founded by the Democratic party, as today's far right-wingnuts
like to lie.

I believe I said that already. "The KKK *was* founded by Democrats." Yes! Yes, I did!

The right-wingnut lie, which you are foolishly validating, is that the KKK was founded by "the Democrats." It was not. It was found by people who, themselves, *were* Democrats, but it was not founded by "the Democrats." It was not the "military arm" <chortle> of "the Democrats."

In the second half of the 20th century, of course, the parties switched entirely
on race. Racist white supremacists left the Democratic party and became
Republicans. The Democrats became the party of racial equality and anti-segregation.

This is a gross and inaccurate generality.

It is 100% factual. It is the most solidly supported social-political conclusion
of the last century.

The Nazis co-opted the word "socialism" and meant something entirely >>>>> different by it than did the actual socialists of the era.  The Nazis >>>>> absolutely did *not* mean economic collectivism, i.e. state ownership of >>>>> the means of production and distribution, the hallmark of socialism.  In >>>>> fact, the Nazis *privatized* industries that had been taken over by the >>>>> state under the Weimar republic.

What Hitler and the Nazis meant by their use of "socialism" was a sort >>>>> of cultural and Aryan identity collectivism.  The Nazis were mortally >>>>> opposed to Marxism, Leninism, "Fourierism," "Fabian" socialism,
"democratic" socialism, or *any* of the traditional left-wing socialist >>>>> philosophies.  The Nazis were not left-wing by any stretch of the
imagination.  The claim that they were is a lie told by far
right-wingnuts to try, unsuccessfully, to pretend there is some
ideological distance between them and outright Nazis.

Well said. Nazism is indeed at the extreme right as Communism is at the extreme left -
BUT, the latter is an economic system only while the former is a political one.

Of course, Nazism and communism start to look a lot alike in operation. Both are
totalitarian, both tolerate no dissent and will engage in murder to suppress it.

Again, this is a bit off. Nazism is a political system, communism is an economic one.

They are both political systems.

Either can function under principals of liberal democracy or authoritarianism.

That is completely bullshit. *Neither* Nazism nor communism can function under principles of liberal democracy. Socialism can, but communism cannot, nor can Nazism. Nazism as a matter of principle, and communism as a matter of practice, *always* mean the annihilation of liberal democracy.

Nazis:  extreme nationalism
Socialists:  internationalist; national identity is bad

Nazis:  indifferent to existence of private enterprise
Socialists:  collectivist first and foremost regarding enterprise

Nazis:  virulently racist
Socialists:  anti-racist

Nazis:  extreme reverence for the past and "traditional values"
Socialists:  "progressive" - hostility to past and tradition

Nazis:  romantic and folkloric; anti-intellectual
Socialists:  "scientific" and pro-intellectual

Nazis:  glorification of military and war as greatest expression of >>>>>         national identity; effective military control of state >>>>> Socialists:  military subordinate to civilian-controlled state

Nazis:  aggressively expansionist through war
Socialists:  passively expansionist through collapse of capitalist
        economies due to capitalism's so-called "inherent contradiction"

Fascism and Nazism are right-wing, not left-wing.  The revisionist
effort by right-wingnuts to paint a contrary picture is a failure.

There is a reason that Nazis were major participants at the "unite the >>>>> right" murder rally in Charlottesville in

Interesting.

I have always understood socialism to be an economic system and Nazism >>>> to be a system of government.

Correct, but either can be freely democratic *or* authoritarian in execution.

There has never been a country that has declared itself to be, and actually is
or was, communist, that wasn't a full-fledged totalitarian state. Communism >> can't even be attempted without totalitarian government.

Jamestown.

Not communist. It had socialist land ownership and management.

People will not
naturally cooperate in a system where working hard gets you no better a result
than being a slacker and a deadbeat. They have to be compelled to participate.

And there you have it. The bourgeoisie, the foundation and heart of any healthy economy,
must especially be compelled. Thus a liberal democratic government too easily can give
way to an authoritarian one in a communist economy.

The communist government *annihilates* liberal democracy. It must, or it will fall. Communism and Nazism *both* are fundamentally incompatible with democracy.

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On 10/24/2023 1:03 PM, Don Crachat, the asshole not-an-anarchist and fake atheist and full-time burrito-roller, mumbled and lied:

The Nazis, being fascists, were socialists.

The Nazis, you stupid lying burrito roller, were *not* socialists. They were mortal enemies of socialists.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/25/2023 1:50 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:43:45 -0700
"Mr. B1ack" <bykkker@dogshit~rag.nut> wrote:

On 10/24/2023 1:03 PM, Don Crachat, the asshole not-an-anarchist and
fake atheist and full-time burrito-roller, mumbled and lied:

The Nazis, being fascists, were socialists.

The Nazis, you stupid lying burrito roller, were *not* socialists.
They were mortal enemies of socialists.

*All* socialists are mortal enemies of other socialists with slightly different ideologies. There is room for only one...

The Nazis, of course, were not and are not socialists. German Nazis of 1933-1945
were functionally the same as Italian fascists — far right-wing — with the addition of bizarre Scientology-like weird mysticism. But they were far right-wing. The Nazis were not socialists and were not left-wing. This established beyond rational dispute.

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XPost: or.politics, alt.politics.democrats

On 2/23/2025 6:29 PM, Jay Santos wrote:

On 10/25/2023 5:01 PM, Governor Swill wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 04:04:36 -0500, David Hartung <junk@nogood.com>
wrote:

On 10/23/23 22:13, Jay Santos wrote:

['can.politics' gratuitous bullshit crosspost removed]

On 10/1/2023 9:04 AM, Rhys Gabbard wrote:

The Right Needs To Stop Falsely Claiming That The Nazis Were
Socialists

They should, but they are dishonest and won't.  The lie that the Nazis >>>> were "socialists" is one of the far right's two favorite lies, the
other
being that the KKK was founded by the "Democratic party."

The KKK *was* founded by Democrats.

It was founded by southern white racists who were themselves Democrats,

Whose sole purpose was to attack Republicans and blacks for political intimidation purposes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: alt.fun, alt.politics.democrats

On 2/23/2025 6:38 PM, Jay Santos wrote:

On 10/26/2023 3:23 PM, Governor Swill wrote:

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:30:09 -0700, Jay Santos <js@cap.gov> wrote:

On 10/25/2023 5:01 PM, Governor Swill wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 04:04:36 -0500, David Hartung <junk@nogood.com>
wrote:

On 10/23/23 22:13, Jay Santos wrote:

['can.politics' gratuitous bullshit crosspost removed]

On 10/1/2023 9:04 AM, Rhys Gabbard wrote:

The Right Needs To Stop Falsely Claiming That The Nazis Were
Socialists

They should, but they are dishonest and won't.  The lie that the
Nazis
were "socialists" is one of the far right's two favorite lies, the >>>>>> other
being that the KKK was founded by the "Democratic party."

The KKK *was* founded by Democrats.

It was founded by reactionary racist whites who, in that era, were
Democrats,
but it was not founded by the Democratic party, as today's far
right-wingnuts
like to lie.

I believe I said that already.  "The KKK *was* founded by Democrats."
Yes!  Yes, I did!

The right-wingnut lie, which you are foolishly validating, is that the
KKK was founded by "the Democrats." It was not. It was found by people
who, themselves, *were* Democrats,

That crap won't fly. A Democrat is a Democrat and they used it for
political terrorism.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, uk.politics.misc, alt.atheism

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 18:42:03 -0800, Lou Bricano <lb@cap.con> wrote:

On 10/25/2023 1:50 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:43:45 -0700
"Mr. B1ack" <bykkker@dogshit~rag.nut> wrote:

On 10/24/2023 1:03 PM, Don Crachat, the asshole not-an-anarchist and
fake atheist and full-time burrito-roller, mumbled and lied:

The Nazis, being fascists, were socialists.

The Nazis, you stupid lying burrito roller, were *not* socialists.
They were mortal enemies of socialists.

*All* socialists are mortal enemies of other socialists with slightly
different ideologies. There is room for only one...

The Nazis, of course, were not and are not socialists. German Nazis of 1933-1945
were functionally the same as Italian fascists — far right-wing — with the >addition of bizarre Scientology-like weird mysticism. But they were far >right-wing. The Nazis were not socialists and were not left-wing. This >established beyond rational dispute.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, uk.politics.misc, alt.atheism

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 18:42:03 -0800, Lou Bricano <lb@cap.con> wrote:

On 10/25/2023 1:50 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:43:45 -0700
"Mr. B1ack" <bykkker@dogshit~rag.nut> wrote:

On 10/24/2023 1:03 PM, Don Crachat, the asshole not-an-anarchist and
fake atheist and full-time burrito-roller, mumbled and lied:

The Nazis, being fascists, were socialists.

The Nazis, you stupid lying burrito roller, were *not* socialists.
They were mortal enemies of socialists.

*All* socialists are mortal enemies of other socialists with slightly
different ideologies. There is room for only one...

The Nazis, of course, were not and are not socialists. German Nazis of 1933-1945
were functionally the same as Italian fascists — far right-wing — with the >addition of bizarre Scientology-like weird mysticism. But they were far >right-wing. The Nazis were not socialists and were not left-wing. This >established beyond rational dispute.

any detailed examination of national socialist histeot shows clearly
that socialism was a primroot fo bational socialism

they try revise this by pretending fascism was a matter of
nationalism

https://www.abelard.org/hitler/hitler.php
“National socialism derives from each of two camps the pure idea that characterises it:
National resolution from bourgeois tradition;
vital, creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism.” [January,
1934]
Schoenbaum, p.57

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic
system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair
salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to
wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we
are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”
Toland (Speech of May 1, 1927), 1976, p. 306 Adolf Hitler : The
Definitive Biography

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XPost: uk, politics.misc

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 18:42:03 -0800, Lou Bricano <lb@cap.con> wrote:

On 10/25/2023 1:50 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:43:45 -0700
"Mr. B1ack" <bykkker@dogshit~rag.nut> wrote:

On 10/24/2023 1:03 PM, Don Crachat, the asshole not-an-anarchist and
fake atheist and full-time burrito-roller, mumbled and lied:

The Nazis, being fascists, were socialists.

The Nazis, you stupid lying burrito roller, were *not* socialists.
They were mortal enemies of socialists.

*All* socialists are mortal enemies of other socialists with slightly
different ideologies. There is room for only one...

The Nazis, of course, were not and are not socialists. German Nazis of 1933-1945
were functionally the same as Italian fascists — far right-wing — with the >addition of bizarre Scientology-like weird mysticism. But they were far >right-wing. The Nazis were not socialists and were not left-wing. This >established beyond rational dispute.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, uk.politics.misc, alt.atheism

abelard wrote:

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 18:42:03 -0800, Lou Bricano <lb@cap.con> wrote:

On 10/25/2023 1:50 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:43:45 -0700
"Mr. B1ack" <bykkker@dogshit~rag.nut> wrote:

On 10/24/2023 1:03 PM, Don Crachat, the asshole not-an-anarchist

and >>> fake atheist and full-time burrito-roller, mumbled and lied:

The Nazis, being fascists, were socialists.

The Nazis, you stupid lying burrito roller, were not socialists.
They were mortal enemies of socialists.

All socialists are mortal enemies of other socialists with slightly
different ideologies. There is room for only one...

The Nazis, of course, were not and are not socialists. German Nazis
of 1933-1945 were functionally the same as Italian fascists — far right-wing — with the addition of bizarre Scientology-like weird
mysticism. But they were far right-wing. The Nazis were not
socialists and were not left-wing. This established beyond rational dispute.

I wanna suck black ass.

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XPost: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, uk.politics.misc, alt.atheism

Fascism, Nazism and Conservatism

European fascism drew on existing anti-modernist conservatism, and on the conservative reaction to communism and 19th-century socialism.
Conservative thinkers such as historian Oswald Spengler provided much of
the world view (Weltanschauung) of the Nazi movement.

In Britain, the conservative Daily Mail enthusiastically backed Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists, and part of the Conservative Party supported closer ties with Nazi Germany.

When defeat in World War II ideologically and historically discredited
fascism, almost all Western conservatives tried to distance themselves from
it. Nevertheless, many post-war Western conservatives continued to admire
the Franco regime in Spain, clearly conservative but also fascist in
origin. With the end of the Franco regime and Portugal's Estado Novo in the 1970s, the relationship between conservatism and classical European fascism
was further weakened.

Militarism is perhaps the most striking similarity between Fascism and contemporary American conservatism. Of course, there are many liberals in America who support the military and even call for increased military
spending.

Even so, American liberals are traditionally more skeptical of the military than American conservatives. It is often said that Neoconservatives, like Hitler, see the military as a paradigm for problem solving (even in
situations that may render militarism impractical or unethical).

The relationship of fascism to right-wing ideologies (including some that
are described as neo-fascist) is still an issue for conservatives
and their opponents. Especially in Germany, there is a constant exchange of ideology and persons, between the influential national-conservative
movement, and self-identified national-socialist groups.
In Italy too, there is no clear line between conservatives, and movements inspired by the Italian Fascism of the 1920s to 1940s, including the
Alleanza Nazionale which is member of the governing coalition under premier Silvio Berlusconi. Conservative attitudes to the 20th-century fascist
regimes are still an issue.




Under an ideological definition of Socialism, for example one stating that
only a system adhering to the principles of Marxism can qualify as
socialist there is a well-defined gap between Nazism and socialism. Nazi leaders were opposed to the Marxist idea of class conflict and opposed the
idea that capitalism should be abolished and that workers should control
the means of production. For those who consider class conflict and the abolition of capitalism as essential components of socialism, these factors alone are sufficient to categorize "National Socialism" as non-socialist.

===

For socialists who consider democracy a core tenet of socialism, Nazism is often seen as a polar opposite of their views. Primo Levi argued that there
was an important distinction between the policies of Nazi Germany and those
of the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China: while they were all arguably totalitarian, and all had their idea of what kind of parasitic
classes or races society ought to be rid of, Levi saw the Nazis assigning a place given by birth (since one is born into a certain race), while the
Soviets and Chinese determined their enemies according to their social
position (which people may change within their life). There are many other philosophical differences between Nazism and Marxism.
There were ideological shades of opinion within the Nazi Party,
particularly before their seizure of power in 1933, but a central tenet of
the party was always the leader principle or Führerprinzip. The Nazi Party
did not have party congresses in which policy was deliberated upon and concessions made to different factions. What mattered most was what the
leader, Adolf Hitler, thought and decreed. Those who held opinions which
were at variance with Hitler's either learned to keep quiet or were purged, particularly after 1933. This is compared to the behavior of certain
Communist states such as that of Stalin in the Soviet Union or Mao Zedong
in China.
Critics of this view point out that Mussolini imprisoned Antonio Gramsci
from 1926 until 1934, after Gramsci, a leader of the Italian Communist
Party and leading Marxist intellectual, tried to create a common front
among the political left and the workers, in order to resist and overthrow fascism. Other Italian Communist leaders like Palmiro Togliatti went into
exile and fought for the Republic in Spain.

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