(I think I may have raised this one some years ago - I've often thought
about it, so might have - but thought it worth raising again.)
What _obligation_ do broadcasters have to show credits at the end of programmes and films?
(Whether they can squash, squeeze, or talk over them is a separate, but related, question.)
I presume that in at least _some_ cases - even if it's very few - some
people (acting/presenting, or technical), might have agreed to appear
in/work on something for a lower fee, provided they were named in the credits.
_Companies_ - mainly production companies, but sometimes archiving
companies - put their name on the end: "made by Desilu productions" is the one that comes to my mind first (followed by lots of BBC), but I've also
seen words to the effect of "you're only seeing this at all because XYZ
gave it shelf space" - these can accumulate to several shown in quick succession for obscure old material, I think the most I've seen is six or seven such.
Presumably for first showing, there _is_ an obligation to show the full credits. (I'm thinking mainly of end credits, but it also applies to start ones.) but when a broadcaster buys a repeat right, do such obligations
remain and/or get transferred? (If they do, do some broadcasters ignore
them for ancient material, on the basis that "anyone who's likely to sue
us over them is long dead"? I think at least the archive companies assume this, as they keep theirs very short - less than a second, often -
presumably in the hope someone won't bother to trim them.)
I'm mainly wondering about the _legal_ aspects, but there's also the
question of the _desirability_: I can understand the argument, if someone makes it, that they could be extremely tedious in some cases. (On
commercial channels, definitely causing loss of viewers.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
"To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." - Woody Allen
Don't know about now, but when I could see, often very old rare films
would say archived by smallfilms or something like that,which I seem to >recall was
the company the late Bob Monkhouse started.
Brian
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message >news:XX$VCNGgFBchFws7@255soft.uk...
(I think I may have raised this one some years ago - I've often thought
about it, so might have - but thought it worth raising again.)
What _obligation_ do broadcasters have to show credits at the end of
programmes and films?
(Whether they can squash, squeeze, or talk over them is a separate, but
related, question.)
I presume that in at least _some_ cases - even if it's very few - some
people (acting/presenting, or technical), might have agreed to appear
in/work on something for a lower fee, provided they were named in the
credits.
_Companies_ - mainly production companies, but sometimes archiving
companies - put their name on the end: "made by Desilu productions" is the >> one that comes to my mind first (followed by lots of BBC), but I've also
seen words to the effect of "you're only seeing this at all because XYZ
gave it shelf space" - these can accumulate to several shown in quick
succession for obscure old material, I think the most I've seen is six or
seven such.
Presumably for first showing, there _is_ an obligation to show the full
credits. (I'm thinking mainly of end credits, but it also applies to start >> ones.) but when a broadcaster buys a repeat right, do such obligations
remain and/or get transferred? (If they do, do some broadcasters ignore
them for ancient material, on the basis that "anyone who's likely to sue
us over them is long dead"? I think at least the archive companies assume
this, as they keep theirs very short - less than a second, often -
presumably in the hope someone won't bother to trim them.)
I'm mainly wondering about the _legal_ aspects, but there's also the
question of the _desirability_: I can understand the argument, if someone
makes it, that they could be extremely tedious in some cases. (On
commercial channels, definitely causing loss of viewers.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
"To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." - Woody Allen
But I was _really_ wondering about the obligation to _show_ creditsAIUI it's essentially down to the contracts - i.e. what conditions they
(more the original ones than the extra flashes added to the end by
archiving companies)
On 21/10/2021 14:59, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
<snip>
But I was _really_ wondering about the obligation to _show_ creditsAIUI it's essentially down to the contracts - i.e. what conditions they
(more the original ones than the extra flashes added to the end by >>archiving companies)
impose (including conditions to impose the same condition - c.f. book >covers).
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 15:32:36, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
On 21/10/2021 14:59, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
<snip>
But I was _really_ wondering about the obligation to _show_ creditsAIUI it's essentially down to the contracts - i.e. what conditions they
(more the original ones than the extra flashes added to the end by
archiving companies)
Yes, I guessed that ...
impose (including conditions to impose the same condition - c.f. book... and was wondering if ones that include such pass-on conditions are common, and what sort/level of enforcement there is, after the first
covers).
showing.
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 08:20:56, "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points
raised):
Don't know about now, but when I could see, often very old rare filmsThere are two aspects to that: there are the companies who don't do
would say archived by smallfilms or something like that,which I seem to >>recall was
the company the late Bob Monkhouse started.
Brian
anything to it, but still give it shelf space; such companies still
arguably provide a useful service, in that they prevent it ending up in a skip. Then there are the ones who do active restoration (sometimes
amazingly so).
(I think Smallfilms was the company that made a lot of the classic
children's TV stuff - Ivor Postgate stuff was it? - rather than an
archiving company.)
But I was _really_ wondering about the obligation to _show_ credits (more
the original ones than the extra flashes added to the end by archiving companies); I've preserved the part of my original post that would have
been lost. (Brian - we do accept your reason for top-posting, but if you
are going to do so, could you perhaps _not_ use a proper .sig-separator
line, so that the post you are replying to _doesn't_ appear part of your signature and thus get cut by default by better software? Thanks, John)
----
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message >>news:XX$VCNGgFBchFws7@255soft.uk...
(I think I may have raised this one some years ago - I've often thought
about it, so might have - but thought it worth raising again.)
What _obligation_ do broadcasters have to show credits at the end of
programmes and films?
(Whether they can squash, squeeze, or talk over them is a separate, but
related, question.)
I presume that in at least _some_ cases - even if it's very few - some
people (acting/presenting, or technical), might have agreed to appear
in/work on something for a lower fee, provided they were named in the
credits.
_Companies_ - mainly production companies, but sometimes archiving
companies - put their name on the end: "made by Desilu productions" is
the
one that comes to my mind first (followed by lots of BBC), but I've also >>> seen words to the effect of "you're only seeing this at all because XYZ
gave it shelf space" - these can accumulate to several shown in quick
succession for obscure old material, I think the most I've seen is six
or
seven such.
Presumably for first showing, there _is_ an obligation to show the full
credits. (I'm thinking mainly of end credits, but it also applies to
start
ones.) but when a broadcaster buys a repeat right, do such obligations
remain and/or get transferred? (If they do, do some broadcasters ignore
them for ancient material, on the basis that "anyone who's likely to sue >>> us over them is long dead"? I think at least the archive companies
assume
this, as they keep theirs very short - less than a second, often -
presumably in the hope someone won't bother to trim them.)
I'm mainly wondering about the _legal_ aspects, but there's also the
question of the _desirability_: I can understand the argument, if
someone
makes it, that they could be extremely tedious in some cases. (On
commercial channels, definitely causing loss of viewers.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
"To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." - Woody Allen
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
The breathtaking wonders of nature revealed to the soothing tones of Sir David
Attenborough. Life doesn't get much better than that.
- Ben Preston, Radio Times editor (2016/11/26-12/2)
One of the issues is that I think about if there is an obligation to show credits, is, would that extend to also reading them out on an audio
described version?
Brian
On 24/10/2021 09:55, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
One of the issues is that I think about if there is an obligation to show credits, is, would that extend to also reading them out on an audio described version?If TV broadcasters are obliged to show credits at the end, why are they allowed to squash them to illegibility?
--
Max Demian
One of the issues is that I think about if there is an obligation to show credits, is, would that extend to also reading them out on an audio
described version?
One of the issues is that I think about if there is an obligation to show >credits, is, would that extend to also reading them out on an audio
described version?
Brian
Rest of post is quotes.
On 24/10/2021 09:55, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
One of the issues is that I think about if there is an obligation to show
credits, is, would that extend to also reading them out on an audio
described version?
If TV broadcasters are obliged to show credits at the end, why are they >allowed to squash them to illegibility?
What_obligation_ do broadcasters have to show credits at the end of programmes and films?
On 20/10/2021 13:53, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
What_obligation_ do broadcasters have to show credits at the end of programmes and films?
I can't imagine it being a "legal" obligation.
If true it will in contracts of the actors and all the others. Probably
vary from person to person depending on how much clout they have.
There is a lot online.
I think these are online but UK will be similar.
"If you’re expecting to be credited in a certain way for your
performance, make sure that’s in writing, too — sometimes projects are acquired partway through, and a new company coming in won’t be bound by oral promises the former company made."
"Who decides on the names displayed in movie credits?
The opening credits are strictly done decided by the film unions."
There are speciment contracts online.
I wonder if they can decide between a credit and getting more money?
From memory the people who got TV credits were traditionally freelance >employees, I'm thinking here of designers, directors, producers etc
since they tended to be 'guns for hire' and the credits were the only
'shop window' through which their talents could be disseminated
throughout the industry. They did not generally have the luxury of
permanent employment at one company and indeed I suspect many creative
people did not want that. Look at a lot of 1960/70s TV programmes being
shown on Talking Pictures TV and you will see the same names working
for many different tv companies. (Dramas by YTV/Granada/LWT etc all
have much the same troupe of directors for example). In the past it
was not an uncommon practice to offer staff who were after a pay rise
the 'carrot' of less of an increase in return for a screen credit. It's
one of the reasons credits got longer and longer.
It's amazing how someone wanting a pay rise can be placated at the
prospect of their dear old Mum seeing their name in lights as it were. >Showbiz eh.
From memory the people who got TV credits were traditionally freelance employees, I'm thinking here of designers, directors, producers etc since they tended to be 'guns for hire' and the credits were the only 'shop window' through which their talentscould be disseminated throughout the industry.
On 27/10/2021 09:28, joe bloggs wrote:could be disseminated throughout the industry.
From memory the people who got TV credits were traditionally freelance employees, I'm thinking here of designers, directors, producers etc since they tended to be 'guns for hire' and the credits were the only 'shop window' through which their talents
BBC: Nice idea, but staff, in specific roles, were
credited as a matter of course. That included
Lighting (TM1s, Engineering Managers (OBs),
Technical Managers (TM2s, sometimes), Camera
supervisors, Sound supers, etc. Freelancers were
typically employed on location work (originally
almost entirely in film), and I think the credits
hierarchy came from union agreement there (so they
could advertise their skills for work, as you say).
Radio was different. Certainly on the domestic
services, studio managers (SMs) and engineers were
never credited (not even the balancers for major
music such as the Proms), but producers were. My
only R4 credits were as a producer.
Sometime in the late 1980s early 1990s this
started to change, around the time "sound design"
became a thing. I don't remember an entire drama
team being credited |(possibly once, on a major
series), but usually the senior SM does get a
credit. Nowadays, too, the Grams role is defunct,
so at maximum it's a technical team of two.
It's still the case that the balance engineers are
rarely if ever mentioned for radio music (at least
not when I dip into R3 from time to time).
I'm actually referring to the period before that - 50/60/early 70's. If
you have a look at some of the old ITV series being transmitted by TPTV
such as Rediffusion's 1960's 'No Hiding Place' or 'Boyd QC' or perhaps
YTV's 1970's 'Justice' or 'The Main chance' or even LWT"s 'Budgie' or 'Upstairs Downstairs" you'll notice its the same happy band of freelance producer/directors going round the companies plying their studio director trade (Christopher Hodson/James Omerod/Herbert Wise/Mike Vardy/Mike Lindsay-Hogg etc). It was the same with other major key production roles
such as the designers etc. Of course the local companies had their own internal resources but they generally handled run of the mill stuff but
key positions on big occasional series were put out to freelancers. 'James Hill' of the BBC trade test film fame 'The Car' for example is all over
the place - Southern's late 1970's 'Worzel Gummidge' for example and ABC's 1960's 'The Human Jungle'. Herbie Wise mentioned above is perhaps more
well known for the BBC's 'I Clavdus" rather than Central's 'Inspector
Morse'. If you do care to look you may be surprised at how restricted the credits originally were going back.
I remember chatting to one floor manager who said their department had
been after a significant local pay rise but were offered half the
percentage they were after and an on screen credit. They voted to take the latter deal even though he personally wanted the 'cash'. As I said above 'Show biz eh'. As the early 80's rolled by so more and more people seemed
to get credits - vision mixers, sound and camera supervisors (as you say)
etc etc but these were not credited roles in the 50's/60's unless they
were externally produced material for purchase, I'm thinking here of stuff like 'Robin Hood', ITC stuff and latterly 'The Avengers" and the like etc
but of course these were more akin to film productions rather than
television and perhaps followed the film tradition.
For the avoidance of doubt I have never had any screen credit as my roles were so small as to be insignificant (to the management anyway!) and I
have no knowledge of the BBC's policies.
On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 9:21:51 AM UTC, SimonM wrote:
On 27/10/2021 09:28, joe bloggs wrote:
From memory the people who got TV credits were traditionallyBBC: Nice idea, but staff, in specific roles, were
freelance employees, I'm thinking here of designers, directors,
producers etc since they tended to be 'guns for hire' and the
credits were the only 'shop window' through which their talents
could be disseminated throughout the industry.
credited as a matter of course. That included
Lighting (TM1s, Engineering Managers (OBs),
Technical Managers (TM2s, sometimes), Camera
supervisors, Sound supers, etc. Freelancers were
typically employed on location work (originally
almost entirely in film), and I think the credits
hierarchy came from union agreement there (so they
could advertise their skills for work, as you say).
Radio was different. Certainly on the domestic
services, studio managers (SMs) and engineers were
never credited (not even the balancers for major
music such as the Proms), but producers were. My
only R4 credits were as a producer.
Sometime in the late 1980s early 1990s this
started to change, around the time "sound design"
became a thing. I don't remember an entire drama
team being credited |(possibly once, on a major
series), but usually the senior SM does get a
credit. Nowadays, too, the Grams role is defunct,
so at maximum it's a technical team of two.
It's still the case that the balance engineers are
rarely if ever mentioned for radio music (at least
not when I dip into R3 from time to time).
I'm actually referring to the period before that - 50/60/early 70's.
If you have a look at some of the old ITV series being transmitted by
TPTV such as Rediffusion's 1960's 'No Hiding Place' or 'Boyd QC' or
perhaps YTV's 1970's 'Justice' or 'The Main chance' or even LWT"s
'Budgie' or 'Upstairs Downstairs" you'll notice its the same happy
band of freelance producer/directors going round the companies plying
their studio director trade (Christopher Hodson/James Omerod/Herbert Wise/Mike Vardy/Mike Lindsay-Hogg etc). It was the same with other
major key production roles such as the designers etc. Of course the
local companies had their own internal resources but they generally
handled run of the mill stuff but key positions on big occasional
series were put out to freelancers. 'James Hill' of the BBC trade
test film fame 'The Car' for example is all over the place -
Southern's late 1970's 'Worzel Gummidge' for example and ABC's 1960's
'The Human Jungle'. Herbie Wise mentioned above is perhaps more well
known for the BBC's 'I Clavdus" rather than Central's 'Inspector
Morse'. If you do care to look you may be surprised at how restricted
the credits originally were going back.
I remember chatting to one floor manager who said their department
had been after a significant local pay rise but were offered half the percentage they were after and an on screen credit. They voted to
take the latter deal even though he personally wanted the 'cash'. As
I said above 'Show biz eh'. As the early 80's rolled by so more and
more people seemed to get credits - vision mixers, sound and camera supervisors (as you say) etc etc but these were not credited roles in
the 50's/60's unless they were externally produced material for
purchase, I'm thinking here of stuff like 'Robin Hood', ITC stuff and latterly 'The Avengers" and the like etc but of course these were
more akin to film productions rather than television and perhaps
followed the film tradition.
For the avoidance of doubt I have never had any screen credit as my
roles were so small as to be insignificant (to the management
anyway!) and I have no knowledge of the BBC's policies.
You ever get a credit?
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